Chuck,

Given your obvious bias towards George that you have repeatedly demonstrated
during this thread, you lack the requisite credibility to lay claim to the
fact that you are just looking to analyze the facts in a cave diving
fatality..

Those of us that cave dive would agree that accident analysis is a very
valuable function, however you aren't looking to analyze the facts
objectively in the instant case..  You are clearly looking to suggest that a
WKPP diver died, and as such the entire WKPP philosophy is open for
criticism..

You are being totally disingenuous to suggest anything other, and are
further denigrating your statue with each post..

The two issues are materially different and any attempt to bifurcate the two
speaks to a hidden agenda..

If you want to take George, WKPP, et. al on with respect to safety issues
and team protocols, good luck because the record speaks for itself..

If you want to analyze objectively the facts in a fellow cave diver's death,
then have at it..

But to link the two to score cheap points and do so under the guise of
accident analysis will not fly..

You may want to lay claim to doing a *positive* claim at the expense of your
*fun*, but I ain't buying it, and it's pretty transparent that you just want
to take a cheap shot at the WKPP, and by extension George..

Why don't you start out by telling us what gives you any credibility in the
area of cave diving accident analysis, or tell us what kind of diving that
you participate in that would make what you say worth reading...  George
clearly has a track record to back up what he says, can you say the same???

Later
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Noe" <chucknoe@ca*.co*>
To: "justin turnbow" <taz2@mi*.co*>
Cc: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*>; "Techdiver"
<techdiver@aquanaut.com>; "Houston Cave Divers"
<HoustonCaveDivers@ca*.co*>; <quest@gu*.co*>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:24 AM
Subject: Re: DIR Fatalities


> If you don't wish to know and learn from the facts surrounding the death
of a
> fellow cave diver, then stick your head in the sand and hit the "delete"
button.
>
> The investigation of cave diving fatalities is one of the MOST IMPORTANT
functions
> of our community and any efforts to subvert that process should be
strenuously
> opposed.
>
> Do you think I'm HAVING FUN here?!!
>
> I don't go around posting the usual nonsense to these lists so please bear
with me
> while I try to do something positive.
>
> Chuck
>
> justin turnbow wrote:
>
> > HEY CHUCK IF YOU HAVE SUCH A HARD-ON FOR GEORGE E-MAIL
> > HIM IN PERSON AND QUITE WASTING SPACE ON THE TECHDIVER
> > LIST SOME OF US GOT ON THIS LIST TO LEARN SOMETHING
> > NOT TO SEE DID NOT DID TOO >
> > P.S. FOR A PERSONAL COMMENT OF MY OWN GOL IS DEAD
> > LEARN FROM HIS DEATH AND MOVE ON . IF YOU LIVE IN THE PAST
> > THE FUTURE WILL PASS YOU BY .
> > AND  GUYS LIKE GEORGE ARE LIVING IN THE NOW
> > SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS AND PRAY HOPE THAT YOU LEARN TOO
> > RELEASE YOUR HATE YOU HOLD INSIDE IT (HATE) IS A CANCER
> > AND IT WILL EAT YOU UP INSIDE
> > PEACE OUT AND MERRY CHRISTMAS
> > JUSTIN TURNBOW
> >
> > George Irvine wrote:
> >
> > > This is complete bullshit.  The fact is that you, Chuck Noe, were
booted off
> > > the WKPP by me because you are a complete and total stroke.
> > >
> > > It's well known in WKPP that anybody caught diving with you will be
booted
> > > off the team.
> > >
> > > You are a complete liar.
> > >
> > > 1.)  We have the coroner's report.
> > > 2.)  I am the guy who schedules divers and I DID NOT have Gol
scheduled for
> > > any dives in the approaching dive weekend.  If Gol was planning on
attending
> > > one of our events, he would not have been in the water.
> > > 3.)  Gol was told by his doctor not to dive following the last round
of
> > > seizures.
> > > 4.)  The bottle had a label on it marked 500psi He, not 100% Helium
> > > 5.)  The bottle had no gas in it at all after the dive
> > > 6.)  Even an idiot like you knows that if you were breathing pure
helium,
> > > you'd never be able to breathe a full 500 psi in shallow water before
you
> > > went out.
> > > 7.)  Furthermore, if he had been diving with WKPP divers, under WKPP
rules,
> > > none of these uncertainties would be possible anyway and his buddy
would not
> > > have let him dive in the first place.
> > > 8.)  He told the guy he was diving with that he was "feeling better"
and
> > > wanted to try diving.
> > >
> > > Chuck, do you know how I maintain the safety record of the WKPP?  By
keeping
> > > people like you away from it.
> > >
> > > You're just like every other lying stroke out there - you take
hearsay,
> > > bullshit, half-truths and incomplete information and then try to
assign some
> > > value to it.  And Chuck, it wasn't just me who kicked you off the
team, it
> > > was the whole team.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chuck Noe [mailto:chucknoe@ca*.co*]
> > > Sent: Friday, December 12, 3502 12:43 AM
> > > Subject: Re: DIR Fatalities
> > >
> > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > >
> > > Okay George; I've about had it with your fucking lies.
> > >
> > > For the record Jonathan Gol did not die of any
> > >
> > > "massive brain hemmorage" or any other medical
> > >
> > > condition.
> > >
> > > Your assertion that Jonathan was "on leave" from
> > >
> > > diving with the team is also crap. I have first-hand
> > >
> > > knowledge that he was asked to and was planning on
> > >
> > > participating in your approaching dive weekend.
> > >
> > > Also his best friend and personal physician told
> > >
> > > me in person that Jonathan had been "released" to
> > >
> > > resume diving by the specialists who had treated
> > >
> > > him earlier in the summer for his ailments.
> > >
> > > All that crap you posted on Quest was a bunch of
> > >
> > > lies designed to protect you and your project
> > >
> > > from criticism.
> > >
> > > Everybody in the know realizes that Jonathan's death
> > >
> > > was brought on from breathing 100% HELIUM while at
> > >
> > > his deco stop and we are just awaiting the final
> > >
> > > test results from the NEDU before discussing this
> > >
> > > publicly.
> > >
> > > Jonathan was a dear friend of mine who made the terrible
> > >
> > > mistake of temporarily transferring helium into an
> > >
> > > aluminum 40. He went so far as to marking the bottle
> > >
> > > "100% HE / 500 psi" with duct tape. But he ignored
> > >
> > > the markings while on this fatal dive. These are all
> > >
> > > facts which can be confirmed by the Jackson County
> > >
> > > Sheriff's Department.
> > >
> > > What is even sadder is that YOU feel compelled to lie
> > >
> > > about all of this in order to protect your "perfect safety
> > >
> > > record" which we ALL know is a joke. I can admire your
> > >
> > > team accomplishments and the strides that have been made,
> > >
> > > but to say that there haven't been bumps along the way
> > >
> > > is senseless.
> > >
> > > Jonathan was a fine human being and a skilled and
> > >
> > > accomplished diver. Why can you not admit that he made
> > >
> > > a mistake and let us all learn from that?
> > >
> > > Chuck Noe
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>

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