Chuck,

I can't help but think that you and others would have been better served to
have approached Trey privately with your concerns before taking it public.

On 12/17/01 10:34 AM, "Chuck Noe" <chucknoe@ca*.co*> wrote:

> My evidence is in the form of testimony from Jonathan's family, physician, and
> closest friends. These are the only people who are privy to the NEDU's report
> and the Medical Examiner's report.

I'm still not sure how this makes Trey's opinion a lie. My opinion was
apparently wrong too. Did I lie? Or am I just wrong?
 
> The lead investigator and IUCRR representative (Scott Hunsucker) has stated
> repeatedly that he will release the findings as soon as the NEDU makes them
> available to non-family officials.

Which is why I wonder about this process that you've entered into. Why
didn't you wait until the facts were in?

> Try clicking on http://www.gue.com/research/wkpp/forms/roster_apr20011.pdf
> This "team roster" was still active as of 12/17/01.

Ask any webmaster about how timely websites are. The guy who died in the
Cayman's a while back was listed as an employee of the diveshop he worked at
for weeks afterwards. That is hardly evidence.

> You are correct. I cannot prove that Jonathan had George's specific approval.
> All I can state as fact is that any prohibition from participation was not
> generally know among his peer-level teammates.

And yet you have been talking as if you knew.
 
>> It's now well known, largely thanks to this discussion, that Jonathan was
>> gravely ill. And the assumption among all those I had spoken with, including
>> a close friend of Jonathan's, was that he probably died of an overpressure
>> injury that was probably related to his illness
> 
> You're obviously out of the loop. Call one of your closest dive buddies who
> lives on the west side of Houston in a new house and get the facts.

I did and almost up to the day you posted on this subject he had been
telling me that his opinion (based as it was on scant evidence) was that
Jonathan probably died of an overpressure injury related to his illness, not
all that different than George's analysis. He didn't know, I didn't know,
but we still speculated as nearly everyone does in these cases.

> I have said all along that Jonathan's performance was compromised due to the
> fact that he hadn't been in the water for months and because of the residual
> effects of his prior illness. But to say that he died of a "massive brain
> hemorrhage" is unconscionable.

And yet wouldn't that be similar and consistent with an overpressure injury
of some type? Anyone with an illness involving the brain as Jonathan had, it
would not be surprising that this would be the result, so I still do not see
where Trey has lied, maybe engaged in somewhat more extrapolation than you
were comfortable with, but we were all doing it. Certainly that friend in
Houston and I were, as was a group of cave divers I spoke with in Atlanta
recently and we all came to that conclusion. The puzzling part was the 100%
Helium in the water, if that is what it was.

> George's posts continually attack me personally while I simply state the
> facts.
> THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE WKPP OR DIR. - JONATHAN VIOLATED DIR. I only want the
> facts to be know so that perhaps somebody might LEARN SOMETHING from all of
> this.

I agree with this impulse entirely, but I still do not see how attacking
George in such a personal manner accomplishes your goal. It's perfectly
appropriate to disagree with one another's conclusions and George is
certainly no boy scout and at time infuriatingly direct, but that hardly
constitutes a lie, unless you have other evidence of this which I have yet
to see.
> 
>> And NO ONE has satisfactorily explained why the hell he had (if he
>> had) a bottle of 100% helium, can you?
> 
> Absolutely. And this is where I believe the community can learn something.
> Jonathan never liked returning storage bottles to the gas supplier with any
> residual helium (since helium is so expensive). It was not unusual for him to
> transfer the last 300-500 psi of gas into empty stage bottles with the
> intention 
> of topping them later. He would mark these bottles with tape of their
> contents.
> Earlier in the summer Jonathan had done just this, and one of the cylinders
> was
> an aluminum 40. In his haste to prepare and leave on a dive trip he grabbed
> the
> aluminum 40 (a cylinder type he commonly used for O2 decompression) forgetting
> that it DID NOT contain oxygen. At the dive site its pressure was checked and
> at
> least four other divers discussed with him the fact that it only had 500 psi.
> He
> determined that 500 psi was plenty of gas to complete his planned dive. When
> recovered the bottle was fitted with a D400 second stage (which he would not
> use
> as a stage regulator due to its design).
> 
>> And aren't YOU jumping the gun with a
>> report that is apparently not complete?
> 
> Absolutely, I'm jumping the gun! I NEVER wanted to discuss this publicly prior
> the the public-release of the NEDU report.

And yet you did. Yes George and others did speculate, but George is not the
medical examiner, he's speculates and because of his stature I guess it gets
a lot more play and so became an issue with you guys. Personally, I think
you would have been better off to have waited, perhaps rebutted George's
opinion and suggested patience.

Of course, it's all too common for someone to counsel that we "wait for the
coroner's report" and then it never gets released. Sometimes the family
requests a delay or there may be other reasons, but it's always been
difficult to get at the real facts because this is such a highly charged and
emotional issue. I agree, George has an abrasive manner, but it's part of
the package, I'm used to it, although I admit that I have not had a close
friend die and get "critiqued" as always happens. Cave diving on the
internet requires a thick skin.
 
> Jonathan certainly had "health concerns" and we all agree that he was probably
> in no shape to be doing decompression dives. I can't help but believe that his
> health played a role in his "breathing a hypoxic mix" at deco. He never would
> have made that mistake if he had been "on top of his game". But still, to say
> that somebody died of a "massive brain hemorrhage" when they actually went
> hypoxic due to misplacing helium in their deco cylinder is wrong (and a lie).

But again, I certainly didn't know that and I was talking to someone who was
discussing this with you right along, so how can you expect others to be as
"in the loop" on this cause of death as you are? You do still appear to be
acting out some problems you have with George. I know that a lot of folks on
the Houston list have problems with Trey -- it's no secret.

> I wholeheartedly agree with the DIR methods, and applaud the WKPP's
> accomplishments. I've said this all along.
> It IS difficult to disagree publicly with someone of George's stature, but I
> owe that to Jonathan and the community.

Then disagree. State your case.

> I was wrong for using abusive language or profanity in my posts, but I have
> refused to attack George personally. He has tried to discredit me in any way
> possible; all I care about is presenting the errors in his statements.

I've often made the same mistake.

> In absence of more of George's misrepresentations I will await the final
> public report of the NEDU to support my statements. I too am weary of the
> whole affair.

That's the best route. I hope there is a clear cause of death and
understanding of what happened for everyone's sake.

>> You want to flush out a liar, ask the folks over at the CDS or the IUCRR why
>> it is that over a year ago they publicly made a promise to me on these lists
>> (Cavers, I think) to release the diving accident data that Jeff Bozanic has
>> been sitting on for years to the public.
> 
> Good question.
> 
>> That never happened, despite nearly
>> daily efforts and reminders of that promise: NADA. That's something that
>> could actually do some good, a searchable database of cave diving accidents
>> that cave divers could refer to for safety info. What a great learning tool
>> that could be. Wouldn't that be a good use of your energies instead of this
>> Holy Grail search for proof that GIII is a liar?
> 
> We have similar motives. I don't care that it was George making the false
> statements about Jonathan; I would have rebutted any such statements from any
> individual. It was merely coincidence that George was the one making the false
> statements.

I hope that at some point the cave diving community gets fed up with all the
secrecy, cliquishness and foot-dragging by the traditional certifying
agencies and finally convinces them to come forth with these accident files.
I know that Robert Laird, the webmaster for the IUCRR is posting some recent
fatalities data on their site now, but there are many years worth of AA
files still hidden that need to see the light of day and not just sit in
Bozanic's filing cabinet for him to occasionally release statistical
analysis on as he sees fit. That info does not really belong to him or the
agencies, it belongs to all active cave divers who want to know what
happened to divers like Jonathan and all those who went before him. Focus on
that and I think we will all find ourselves in agreement.

> Yes. People need to learn from Jonathan's death.
> 1) Do not put helium in bottles indiscriminately.
> 2) Do not use bottles that are not marked properly.
> 3) Analyze everything (even oxygen).
> 4) Do not rush to resume diving following a serious illness.
> 5) Do not rush to do ANY dive. Take your time; be methodical.
 
> I hope you understand this affair more completely now Joel. George's
> contributions to diving far outweigh anything I will ever contribute, but
> still
> that does not give him the right to misrepresent the facts surrounding
> Jonathan's death. Let everyone know the truth, and let them learn from it.
> This
> doesn't have to be a black eye for the WKPP because it has nothing to do with
> the WKPP.

I believe that you already disliked Trey and what seemed to you to be an
off-the-cuff analysis of Jonathan's last dive was Trey being Trey. I have
never much liked the apparently cold manner in which he goes after those who
have screwed the pooch, but this isn't golf. Techdiving has become too
mainstream and the gallows humor that is part of many dangerous activities
(and cave diving IS dangerous -- it's not possible to make it as safe as OW
diving), grates on a lot of divers. Cave diving should never be recreational
and yet that is what it has become and so we get the infusion of Scuba-L
type sensibilities, convoluted gear, rampant stupidity and dead divers. If I
die in a cave I want it all to be known. Whatever stupid, arrogant thing I
did to wind up at room temperature prematurely should come out in full,
sparing nothing. 

As divers we do need to know what happens when a diver dies. Unfortunately,
that is a higher need than that of the families who want to find closure and
peace -- unless we all want to stop diving. As in aircraft accidents, etc.
we need to know what REALLY happens in cave diving accidents. Going after
Trey is not the solution, in fact, it's part of the problem in my opinion.

I didn't know Jonathan well. But your concern speaks well of him that he had
such devoted friends.

JoeL

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