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--part1_118.b291c72.297b55fb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/19/2002 8:07:24 AM Central Standard Time, girvine@be*.ne* writes: Look, idiot, there is no excuse for doing things the way these guys do it. Helmet in > the dry cave is one thing, the rest of what you are saying reflects that > fact that you don't do jack shit, and don't know. Hey, I was in a dry cave once, and there was water in there too. So how do you sump dive? If the dry cave is beyond a sump or several, how do you get the helmet there? Reinhard explores sump/dry stuff that you can't even understand the severity of, and > he has no problem bringing g all the right gear and DIR at the same time. Agreed the push in France was no small feat and is to be highly respected. It took an equipment configuration which provided the best possible means to explore Doux de Coly with its unique conditions. But I'm certain what he used there will not work in all places on the planet. > Perhaps you could forward this to him so he can elaborate on his sump > diving techniques. I'd like to know if he wears a helmet for his dry cave explorations, and how he gets it beyond the sump. I'd be very surprised if he makes use of a standard DIR rig (which I know is the right > configuraton for cave springs which can be accessed easily). > ow if he can get a set of doubles and full DIR gear to the sump, then I'd > say that is the best way to dive in that particular sump. That is also what > I would do under these circumstances. > If he has to side mount then I'd be very surprised if he makes use of a > standard DIR harness and backplate, but I know some who like this method. > For a period, I used the standard backplate and harness as a sidemount rig but discontinued doing so about 12 years ago. Personally, I did not care for > did I like the way the backplate interfered > with my crawling and climbing. I made a sidemount harness built for the specific purpose of sump diving which enables me more freedom of movement both under and above the water. Hey, I'm not one of those guys keep on trying to tell us all why idiocy and the "every man for himself", > "fuck your buddies", Star Wars Bar Scene mentality is such a noble thing. > The fact is that no matter how well you try to articulate stupidity, it is still stupidity. I totally agree. "Silt Happens" JD > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JDisler401@ao*.co* [mailto:JDisler401@ao*.co*] >> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 12:43 AM >> To: scoff_cavedivinggroup@ho*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com >> Subject: Re: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? >> >> >> Greetings scoff, >> >> Well said and true to reality are the words you have shared. >> >> I think the most basic philosophy of anyone who dry caves is to wear a >> helmet. >> >> For the sake of argument, or to perhaps conclude this argument... >> Imagine a sump (small, large, within any stratum, etc..) which >> necessitates a dive for the dry caver to reach the airfilled cave beyond. >> >> The experienced dry caver (that is someone who actually dry caves) will, >> A. Most likely choose to wear a helmet to reach the sump. >> >> B. Most likely wish to have a helmet to explore the airfilled sections >> beyond the sump. >> >> Personally I would choose all of the above, but If I had to choose between >> A or B, I would unquestionably select B for the simple reason, that is the >> location where Murphy could make some very serious problems. >> >> So now that the use of proper headgear has been selected, the choice of >> lighting becomes a second consideration. >> The light selected must have, >> >> A. The ability to become attach to the helmet which ultimately will become >> one with the caver.(This due to the reasons you have outlined, hands free >> lighting for the purpose of negotiating the airfilled cave passage, etc.) >> >> B.Have extended burn times, because of the nature of this activity,(aka >> sump diving). >> >> C.Desirable power to weight ratio and durability. >> >> D.Usable both in and out of the submerged sections of passage and without >> the need for reconfiguration of gear. In other words, to go from dry cave >> mode to dive mode and back with as little hassle as possible. >> >> So now the marriage of headgear and lighting has been made and hopefully >> the suitability of same has been made somewhat clear. >> How would the helmet best be carried through the sump? I'd suggest it >> would be on the head of the explorer. >> >> The above method equates to less extraneous gear which simplifies the >> logistics. >> >> Scoff, as you also have pointed out, it is possible to wear a helmet >> mounted light without blinding team members. >> It is also possible, given adequate visibility, to shield the light to >> search for a team members light or to signal same. >> >> I agree that the suitability of DIR has been well noted and I believe that >> some conditions do support it's use better than others. >> >> Also, I am not suggesting this is the only way to dive in sumps, and would >> like to hear from others who have successfully used DIR for actual sump >> dives. >> What equipment configuration was used to explore the airfilled passage >> beyond the sump? Anyone? >> >> Disclaimer, I do not claim to be an expert on any type of diving, but I >> did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. >> >> "Silt Happens" JD > --part1_118.b291c72.297b55fb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 01/19/2002 8:07:24 AM Central Standard Time, girvine@be*.ne* writes: <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Look, idiot, there is no excuse for doing things the way these guys do it. Helmet in </FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">the dry cave is one thing, the rest of what you are saying reflects that fact that you don't do jack shit, and don't know. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR>Hey, I was in a dry cave once, and there was water in there too. <BR> <BR>So how do you sump dive? If the dry cave is beyond a sump or several, how do you get the helmet there?</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Reinhard explores sump/dry stuff that you can't even understand the severity of, and </FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">he has no problem bringing g all the right gear and DIR at the same time. </FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Agreed the push in France was no small feat and is to be highly respected. It took an equipment configuration which provided the best possible means to explore Doux de Coly with its unique conditions. <BR>But I'm certain what he used there will not work in all places on the planet.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> Perhaps you could forward this to him so he can elaborate on his sump diving </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> techniques. <BR>I'd like to know if he wears a helmet for his dry cave explorations, and how he gets it beyond the sump.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I'd be very surprised if he makes use of a standard DIR rig (which I know is the right </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">configuraton for cave springs which can be accessed easily).</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR>N<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">ow if he can get a set of doubles and full DIR gear to the sump, then I'd say that is the best way to dive in that particular sump. That is also what I would do under these circumstances. <BR>If he has to side mount then I'd be very surprised if he makes use of a standard DIR harness and backplate, but I know some who like this method. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">For a period, I used the standard backplate and harness as a sidemount rig but discontinued doing so about 12 years ago. Personally, I did not care for the increase in profile, nor<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> did I like the way the backplate interfered with my crawling and climbing.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> I made a sidemount harness built for the specific purpose of sump diving which enables me more freedom of movement both under and above the water. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hey, I'm not one of those</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> guys keep on trying to tell us all why idiocy and the "every man for himself", </FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">"fuck your buddies", Star Wars Bar Scene mentality is such a noble thing. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> The fact is that no matter how well you try to articulate stupidity, it is still stupidity. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">I totally agree. <BR> <BR>"Silt Happens" JD</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">-----Original Message----- <BR><B>From:</B> JDisler401@ao*.co* [mailto:JDisler401@ao*.co*] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 18, 2002 12:43 AM <BR><B>To:</B> scoff_cavedivinggroup@ho*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Helmets for cave diving. What's the deal? <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" LANG="0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0">Greetings scoff, <BR> <BR>Well said and true to reality are the words you have shared. <BR> <BR>I think the most basic philosophy of anyone who dry caves is to wear a helmet. <BR> <BR>For the sake of argument, or to perhaps conclude this argument... <BR>Imagine a sump (small, large, within any stratum, etc..) which necessitates a dive for the dry caver to reach the airfilled cave beyond. <BR> <BR>The experienced dry caver (that is someone who actually dry caves) will, <BR>A. Most likely choose to wear a helmet to reach the sump. <BR> <BR>B. Most likely wish to have a helmet to explore the airfilled sections beyond the sump. <BR> <BR>Personally I would choose all of the above, but If I had to choose between A or B, I would unquestionably select B for the simple reason, that is the location where Murphy could make some very serious problems. <BR> <BR>So now that the use of proper headgear has been selected, the choice of lighting becomes a second consideration. <BR>The light selected must have, <BR> <BR>A. The ability to become attach to the helmet which ultimately will become one with the caver.(This due to the reasons you have outlined, hands free lighting for the purpose of negotiating the airfilled cave passage, etc.) <BR> <BR>B.Have extended burn times, because of the nature of this activity,(aka sump diving). <BR> <BR>C.Desirable power to weight ratio and durability. <BR> <BR>D.Usable both in and out of the submerged sections of passage and without the need for reconfiguration of gear. In other words, to go from dry cave mode to dive mode and back with as little hassle as possible. <BR> <BR>So now the marriage of headgear and lighting has been made and hopefully the suitability of same has been made somewhat clear. <BR>How would the helmet best be carried through the sump? I'd suggest it would be on the head of the explorer. <BR> <BR>The above method equates to less extraneous gear which simplifies the logistics. <BR> <BR>Scoff, as you also have pointed out, it is possible to wear a helmet mounted light without blinding team members. <BR>It is also possible, given adequate visibility, to shield the light to search for a team members light or to signal same. <BR> <BR>I agree that the suitability of DIR has been well noted and I believe that some conditions do support it's use better than others. <BR> <BR>Also, I am not suggesting this is the only way to dive in sumps, and would like to hear from others who have successfully used DIR for actual sump dives. <BR>What equipment configuration was used to explore the airfilled passage beyond the sump? Anyone? <BR> <BR>Disclaimer, I do not claim to be an expert on any type of diving, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. <BR> <BR>"Silt Happens" JD</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="arial" LANG="0"> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT></HTML> --part1_118.b291c72.297b55fb_boundary-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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