Dave, nitrous oxide, nitrogen balance, etc. Partial pressure is all the
counts for tox. The only difference is the time to onset which is increased
by high partial pressures of nitrogen due to the difficulty of breathing it
( create more co2 which dilates the blood vessels and delivers too much
oxygen where it is not wanted ).

Using 1.6 partial pressure must be done in the methods I have already
described or it amounts to a spike that could bring on a seizure depending
on the current and cumulative exposure ( diminution of brain chemistry).

-----Original Message-----
From: David E. Smith [mailto:dsmith218@ho*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 10:01 PM
To: Trey; Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock


Trey,
In what manner is nitrogen not inert as compared to
helium?  I think this is the first I have heard that.

Also, do you not subscribe to the notion that other
gases' presence in an O2 environment makes you less
susceptible to a CNS 02 tox?  (e.g.  50/50 at 1.6ata
is more forgiving than 100% at 1.6ata)  I won't tell
you where I learned that <g>, but I don't believe
the reason why (IF it is even true) was understood.
So I can't argue one way or the other with any
credibility.

David E. Smith

God Bless America!
Hunt and Punish! Dead or Alive!
We are coming for you!


-----Original Message-----
From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:34 AM
To: Ferry Ouwerkerk; Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com; Quest@Gu*. Com
Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock



 Helium has no effect as to the offgassing part of deco it and of itself.
The sum of the inert gases is merely the opposite of the oxygen window. All
that matters in this sense is the window applied with the toggling effect I
described.

 What is key with helium and why in real life it does shorten deco is that
1) you do not get the damage with helium that you get with nitrogen, 2) it
is far easier to breathe and causes you to develop less co2, 3) it is truly
inert unlike nitrogen, 4) it lowers the narcotic effect and makes you more
alert, 5) it does not precipitate the immune reaction that high partial
pressures of nitrogen do and forms smaller bubbles, 6) it comes out of
tissues more easily.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ferry Ouwerkerk [mailto:f.ouwerkerk@qu*.nl*]
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 4:50 PM
To: Trey
Subject: Re: Oxygen Clock


George,

Do helium based deco mixtures affect the deco-profile in any way, or can you
us the software generated profile based on nitrox based deco gasses and jus
do the breaks when nesscary?

thanks,
Ferry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
To: "Charles Roth" <divr555@ho*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>;
"Quest@Gu*. Com" <quest@gu*.co*>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock


>
>  The short version of the answer is that we came up with this ( 12 on , 6
> off )by trying everything and arriving at that. We knew from any of our
> diving that long exposures to higher ppo2s left us feeling like we had a
> chest cold. We started out with the usual crap that is taught out there
 20
> on then break ) and found that to be useless. We found loss of vital
> capacity with these regimens.  Now we have no such negative results.
>
>  The oxygen takes less than 12 minutes to reach as high an effective
> saturation level as is useful. Beyond that the body reacts by constricting
> blood vessels everywhere which limits off gassing, by trying to protect
the
> lining of the lungs and hence thickens the transfer area by adding cells
and
> excreting mucous which impedes gas transfer, and by causing swelling of
the
> lung tissue which further reduces gas exchange capability, not to mention
> scarring and long term damage that in my opinion will come back to haunt
the
> agencies who teach the baloney.
>
>   Returning to a more normoxic ppo2 will reverse these effects. However,
if
> you do not return soon enough, the effects take a lot longer to reverse.
The
> big and important thing here is not to depend on reversing this action,
but
> to preempt it and keep it from fully developing and thus make what does
> occur easier to reverse and at the same time actually improve your off
> gassing by opening the capillaries back up and allowing gas to escape from
> the tissues into the blood. This "toggling" back and forth has proven to
be
> the absolute best method of gas use in decompression. DIR deco.
>
>   If you fail to do this at any point in the deco using high ppo2s you
will
> merely be holding gas in tissues which may expand before it can be removed
> as you move up - another massive flaw in all of the existing deco
programs.
>
>   As you get higher in the water column, off gassing is more safely and
> effectively achieved by the moving the gradient and letting gas bubble
into
> the bloodstream and be caught and removed by the lungs, but lower down
this
> will not work - one more huge flaw in deco programs.
>
>   You really should look on the WKPP site and read some of my profiles and
> decompressions on the longer dives to see all the massive deviations from
> what is thought to be correct by the agencies.
>
>   In fact, I will tell you right now that this is just like deep air - the
> same idiots who fought for their precious deep air are the ones who teach
> the most incorrect deco and theories of deco. The same people - give them
a
> wide berth in all areas of diving since you can NOT teach pigs to sing.
>
>   If want real information, come to the proven sources.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Roth [mailto:divr555@ho*.co*]
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:53 AM
> To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock
>
>
> Trey,
> In fear of sounding stupid, yes, I would really like to know how you all
> came up with this. Or at least point me in the right direction to find the
> resources about this.  Thanks.
>
> Chuck R
>
>
> >From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey)
> >To: "Isaac Callicrate" <icallicrate@ho*.co*>, <mjblackmd@ya*.co*>,
> ><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock
> >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:10 -0500
> >
> >
> >Isaac, we have found that 12 minutes on, 6 minutes off is the ideal. We
> >only
> >do oxygen at 30 feet in a habitat where we have caves that accommodate
> >this.
> >Otherwise we do oxygen at 20 feet or slightly less in the water with the
> >same schedule. If anyone wants to go back over why we do this and how we
> >determine bottom gas , deco gas and exposure ( or how we arrived at what
we
> >do), I can repeat it .
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Isaac Callicrate [mailto:icallicrate@ho*.co*]
> > >Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 2:51 AM
> > >To: mjblackmd@ya*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > >Subject: Re: Oxygen Clock
> > >
> > >
> > >Im not sure why everyone is harping on who this guy is or what he
> > >has posted
> > >in the past instead of answering his questions.
> > >Am I missing something in the charter that says you have to rate an
> >answer
> > >or that previous posts disqualify you from getting one?
> > >Ill give it a shot even though there are probably more informed
qualified
> > >people on this list that should be.
> > >I see WKPP as crossing the grey area between recreational and
> > >working diving
> > >(watch out for OSHA, ADC, and USCG). They are performing dives where
more
> > >compartments are saturated than most other recreational profiles.
> > >They have
> > >been diving similar profiles over and over so have built up an amount
of
> > >historical data combined with some doppler research that they have used
> >to
> > >make assumptions about their profiles.
> > >I dont think anyone can say right or wrong yet. If their people
> > >arent having
> > >DCS manifestations or O2 toxicity issues than I would definately
> > >say that by
> > >being the guinea pig and letting the rest reap the rewards of the
> > >data they
> > >are rising above.
> > >Please do the math on a Navy standard TT 6A with 50/50 @ 165' and 100%
@
> > >60'. Do it on a Navy single exposure of 100% at 25' for 240 minutes.
Why
> > >havent you e-mailed them? Please CC me when you do. I think it is
> > >publicaffairs@ne*.na*.na*.mi*
> > >WKPP isnt the only one that challenges theoretical formulas and
> > >assumptions
> > >with historical data. Commercial, military, hyperbaric facilities all
> >have
> > >modified the standard thinking on the CNS clock.
> > >My personal feelings, I wouldnt recommend pushing the clock on a
working
> > >dive when not required. For recreational dives, there is no need
> > >to push it
> > >when you are having fun. If you use a habitat or a chamber or
> > >maybe at rest
> > >during deco with surface support, the risk is minimized.
> > >I dont think that taking breaks off O2 is going to significantly
> > >effect your
> > >susceptibility to a CNS hit. That is speculation and if anyone has data
> >to
> > >prove otherwise I would love to examine and try to push it through to
> >some
> > >people.
> > >About cumulative pulmonary issues, I would absolutely take breaks every
> > >20-25 min for extended exposures. With increases as neccessary.
> > >The only big no-no I see is deco on 100% @ >1.6 w/o a ffm, hat, or in a
> > >controlled environment. I dont think WKPP is doing that. I think
> > >they use a
> > >habitat for extended oxygen. Their protocol incorperates breaks between
> >O2
> > >periods.
> > >What data is NOAA basing their CNS clocking off of? Historical or
> > >Empirical?
> > >Do you side with someones calculator or slide rule?
> > >For technical diving I think everyone should be taught to do a
> > >personal risk
> > >analysis for Accelerated Deco vs O2 tox.
> > >Where do you draw the line? We can use good models for DCS and pretty
> >much
> > >say if you do this profile you will get bent. O2 clock is more like
> > >speeding. Doing 25 is safer than 65 or 100 or 20,000. We dont know
> > >where you
> > >cross the line to get in a guaranteed O2 "accident". We need more data.
> > >All said, everyone enjoy your hit, have the ME e-mail me.
> > >
> > >>From: "Michael J. Black" <mjblackmd@ya*.co*>
> > >>To: Aquanaut Mail <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > >>Subject: Oxygen Clock
> > >>Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:26:40 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> > >
> > >--
> > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> > >
> >
> >--
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>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
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