Mailing List Archive Mailing List Archive
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C1835A.3B1A7710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Give me an exact dive that you want to do or are doing and I will give you and exact run for it as I would do it." George. Could tell me how you would do the following dives: 25 min and 30 min @ 50m and 55m. These are relatively short dives compared to some of the stuff you do but I would like to be able to use the knowledge you have acquired about decompression. The profiles dives above cover almost all of the diving we do in the Sydney area. Deco gas is nitrox 50%, bottom gas is air (until I can find an instructor who teaches a trimix course I'm happy with). Billy Williams tells me that Andrew Georgitsis (spelling?) was planning to come out to Australia to do some trimix courses sometime in the near future. Are you aware if GUE teaches the deco methods used by the WKPP. Thanks in advance James Dibbs Sydney, Australia -----Original Message----- From: trey@ne*.co* [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2001 23:19 To: Osman Tosun Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock and profiles My deco is in the text of the stories. We have been recording these now with the Suunto computers set to gauge mode. We download those and merely write down the run times for each gas change. Hunsucker will be publishing all of that. I did not want any decos put into the dive reports on WKPP or the GUE site unless they were identical to what I prescribe to avoid confusion. It is interesting that the guys who do not do it my way always have a worse result when tested. The dive profiles you are asking about come under what I call the "minimum deco requirement", meaning that they will not appear as proportionally short as the long profiles which hit saturation. Give me an exact dive that you want to do or are doing and I will give you and exact run for it as I would do it. -----Original Message----- From: Osman Tosun [mailto:osman_tosun@ya*.co*] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 11:09 AM To: Trey Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: Re: Oxygen Clock and profiles Hi George, Let me introduce myself first as a recent observer on the list and a recreational/ weekend tech diver who dives in the warm waters of the Philippines, run times rarely exceeding 2hrs. I was very interested in following the thread on oxygen management during deco and the descriptions of your pioneering profiles as you mentioned. I had a quick surf through the WKPP site but could not really find profiles as such. I saw your standard mixes and summary dive reports giving depth and bottom time. Please could you point me in the right direction to where I could find your deco profiles/ running times. I am particularly interested in your shorter dives! Say, less than 330 ft and bottom times in the order of 30 mins. For example looking at the dive reports for 2000: Feb 5 Sally Ward Spring 245 ft for 25 mins or June 23 Wakulla 280ft for 25 mins. Thanks in advance, Osman Tosun. --- Wendell Grogan <wgrogan@dc*.ne*> wrote: > Trey, > A minor point, but important. > On breaks from O2, the closer you get to real > normoxia (i.e.. 21%) the > better. In fact, if you get down to the 17% range, > there is some > evidence that is even better. Air, at 20 feet is > 0.34 ppO2. Most > bottom gas mixes are going to be best. > Wendell > > Trey wrote: > > > > The short version of the answer is that we came > up with this ( 12 on , 6 > > off )by trying everything and arriving at that. We > knew from any of our > > diving that long exposures to higher ppo2s left us > feeling like we had a > > chest cold. We started out with the usual crap > that is taught out there ( 20 > > on then break ) and found that to be useless. We > found loss of vital > > capacity with these regimens. Now we have no such > negative results. > > > > The oxygen takes less than 12 minutes to reach as > high an effective > > saturation level as is useful. Beyond that the > body reacts by constricting > > blood vessels everywhere which limits off gassing, > by trying to protect the > > lining of the lungs and hence thickens the > transfer area by adding cells and > > excreting mucous which impedes gas transfer, and > by causing swelling of the > > lung tissue which further reduces gas exchange > capability, not to mention > > scarring and long term damage that in my opinion > will come back to haunt the > > agencies who teach the baloney. > > > > Returning to a more normoxic ppo2 will reverse > these effects. However, if > > you do not return soon enough, the effects take a > lot longer to reverse. The > > big and important thing here is not to depend on > reversing this action, but > > to preempt it and keep it from fully developing > and thus make what does > > occur easier to reverse and at the same time > actually improve your off > > gassing by opening the capillaries back up and > allowing gas to escape from > > the tissues into the blood. This "toggling" back > and forth has proven to be > > the absolute best method of gas use in > decompression. DIR deco. > > > > If you fail to do this at any point in the deco > using high ppo2s you will > > merely be holding gas in tissues which may expand > before it can be removed > > as you move up - another massive flaw in all of > the existing deco programs. > > > > As you get higher in the water column, off > gassing is more safely and > > effectively achieved by the moving the gradient > and letting gas bubble into > > the bloodstream and be caught and removed by the > lungs, but lower down this > > will not work - one more huge flaw in deco > programs. > > > > You really should look on the WKPP site and read > some of my profiles and > > decompressions on the longer dives to see all the > massive deviations from > > what is thought to be correct by the agencies. > > > > In fact, I will tell you right now that this is > just like deep air - the > > same idiots who fought for their precious deep air > are the ones who teach > > the most incorrect deco and theories of deco. The > same people - give them a > > wide berth in all areas of diving since you can > NOT teach pigs to sing. > > > > If want real information, come to the proven > sources. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Charles Roth [mailto:divr555@ho*.co*] > > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:53 AM > > To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com > > Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock > > > > Trey, > > In fear of sounding stupid, yes, I would really > like to know how you all > > came up with this. Or at least point me in the > right direction to find the > > resources about this. Thanks. > > > > Chuck R > > > > >From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey) > > >To: "Isaac Callicrate" <icallicrate@ho*.co*>, > <mjblackmd@ya*.co*>, > > ><techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > >Subject: RE: Oxygen Clock > > >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:35:10 -0500 > > > > > > > > >Isaac, we have found that 12 minutes on, 6 > minutes off is the ideal. We > > >only > > >do oxygen at 30 feet in a habitat where we have > caves that accommodate > > >this. > > >Otherwise we do oxygen at 20 feet or slightly > less in the water with the > > >same schedule. If anyone wants to go back over > why we do this and how we > > >determine bottom gas , deco gas and exposure ( or > how we arrived at what we > > >do), I can repeat it . > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: Isaac Callicrate > [mailto:icallicrate@ho*.co*] > > > >Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 2:51 AM > > > >To: mjblackmd@ya*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > >Subject: Re: Oxygen Clock > > > > > > > > > > > >Im not sure why everyone is harping on who this > guy is or what he > > > >has posted > > > >in the past instead of answering his questions. > > > >Am I missing something in the charter that says > you have to rate an > > >answer > > > >or that previous posts disqualify you from > getting one? > > > >Ill give it a shot even though there are > probably more informed qualified > > > >people on this list that should be. > > > >I see WKPP as crossing the grey area between > recreational and > > > >working diving > > > >(watch out for OSHA, ADC, and USCG). They are > performing dives where more > > > >compartments are saturated than most other > recreational profiles. > > > >They have > > > >been diving similar profiles over and over so > have built up an amount of > > > >historical data combined with some doppler > research that they have used > > >to > > > >make assumptions about their profiles. > > > >I dont think anyone can say right or wrong yet. > If their people > > > >arent having > > > >DCS manifestations or O2 toxicity issues than I > would definately > > > >say that by > > > >being the guinea pig and letting the rest reap > the rewards of the > > > >data they > > > >are rising above. > > > >Please do the math on a Navy standard TT 6A > with 50/50 @ 165' and 100% @ > > > >60'. Do it on a Navy single exposure of 100% at > 25' for 240 minutes. Why > > > >havent you e-mailed them? Please CC me when you > do. I think it is > > > >publicaffairs@ne*.na*.na*.mi* > > > >WKPP isnt the only one that challenges > theoretical formulas and > > > >assumptions > > > >with historical data. Commercial, military, > hyperbaric facilities all > > >have > > > >modified the standard thinking on the CNS > clock. > > > >My personal feelings, I wouldnt recommend > pushing the clock on a working > > > >dive when not required. For recreational dives, > there is no need > > > >to push it > > > >when you are having fun. If you use a habitat > or a chamber or > > > >maybe at rest > > > >during deco with surface support, the risk is > minimized. > > > >I dont think that taking breaks off O2 is going > to significantly > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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