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I'm not talking about dangerous and stupid-to-the-extreme gear here. I'm not talking about bungee wings, CCR, and bogus crap like that. I've been talking about traditional OW gear like a snorkel, jacket BC, and tank banger. This stuff is simply non-optimal gear that doesn't carry over into more advanced types of diving. It isn't dangerous gear and I'd argue that you aren't screwing the customer if you give him what he wants. It is however your perogative to choose the gear you stock. If carrying only Halcyon gear is the way to keep *your* conscience clear, then good for you for sticking to your morals. We'll just have to agree to disagree. ss On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Nicolai M. Tousaint wrote: > Not because the dumb guy wants a set of redundant 100lb bungee wings, a pair > of steel beauchat 1904s for doubles with a shorty 3mm suit, leg scooters and > a closed circuit rb for back up, I will sell it to him, even if his buy help > my business, cause he is going to get hurt. That4s what I4m saying. > > I would NOT screw my customers to make money, that4s BS, if you come here > you4ll get the real thing, don4t you realize that if you fool somebody he > would not trust you ever again. > > You can dive with however you want, in whichever configuration or gear, or > even sell them your old stroke gear too, is your choice. ( doesn4t mean you > shouldn4t feel guilty about it ) > > I don4t want to waste my time, with who don4t care or don4t wants to listen > and jeopardized the whole team safety in any dive I do, if they are willing > to learn, then is NO problem, for either of us. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Schultz <se2schul@st*.ma*.uw*.ca*> > To: Nicolai M. Tousaint <nick@ak*.co*> > Cc: Steve Schultz <se2schul@st*.ma*.uw*.ca*>; terry michael > <OEA51@go*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; <cavers@ca*.co*>; > <quest@gu*.co*> > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 12:26 PM > Subject: Re: Full DIR Center, was RE: Re: [cavers] RE: GI and SS to Merge > > > > > > Dude, what are you talking about? > > > > Who said anything about poor instruction? There is no poor instruction > going on. Stick to the facts. > > > > Some people will never DIR. Some people will never own a great piece of > gear. > > > > When one of these guys walks into a shop and turns away advice from a GUE > instructor, why should the shop not sell the guy the traditional OW gear > that he insists he wants. It's helping to keep the shop in business. The > guy is going to throw money at another shop that is carrying the gear he > wants. > > > > You say: > > "No stroke divers and gear will be welcome, as I won4t dive with > > them, I will teach exclusively GUE training only for the serious diver > > wanting to put the required effort, we are not trying to pretend we are > > committed, as we really believed that the DIR system is the safest way to > > go." > > > > I think that is somewhat of a poor attitude. I take inexperienced divers > diving all the time. Almost none of them know what they're doing, and they > never will without a little mentoring. Maybe if these divers see a DIR > diver put on the gear quickly and easily, then dive with perfect buoyancy, > and just have an all round fun day, they will be inclined to take a > Fundamentals course and buy some Halcyon gear. Wow, more profit your DIR > Akumel shop. You can serve the DIR community better. > > > > I'll say it again: > > If someone is never going to DIR, and turns down the shop's advice, then I > say it's fair game to hose them by selling the gear they want. Are they > really getting hosed if they get the gear they want? > > > > It's a win-win situation. > > > > ss > > > > On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Nicolai M. Tousaint wrote: > > > > > So maybe they can teach stroke diving too, as long as they teach you a > good > > > class ? > > > let them dive with that gear in the same boat , as long you are not > there ? > > > > > > If you are really committed to the DIR philosophy, you are all the way, > > > > > > Actually GUE and Halcyon are sacrificing profit for quality training and > > > equipment, and you will not find stroke gear that sells there or a cheap > > > class with many c-cards included, when will the dive shops committed to > DIR > > > diving as well ? > > > > > > By the way, if you come diving with us in the new Akumal DIR Center, in > the > > > Yucatan wonderland, expect no stroke gear for sell rent or use in the > > > premises, as well ONLY custom DIR diving programs will be available ( to > all > > > levels ), No stroke divers and gear will be welcome, as I won4t dive > with > > > them, I will teach exclusively GUE training only for the serious diver > > > wanting to put the required effort, we are not trying to pretend we are > > > committed, as we really believed that the DIR system is the safest way > to > > > go. > > > > > > best > > > Nicolai M. Toussaint > > > Akumal DIR Center > > > www.gue.com > > > Quality Dive Instruction, in Mexico4s cave country, the best in the > world. > > > www.halcyon.net > > > DIR equipment repairs, sales, maintenance > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Steve Schultz <se2schul@st*.ma*.uw*.ca*> > > > To: terry michael <OEA51@go*.co*> > > > Cc: Gertje <gert.je@wo*.nl*>; <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; > > > <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; > <cavers@ca*.co*>; > > > <quest@gu*.co*> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 11:19 AM > > > Subject: Re: Re: [cavers] RE: GI and SS to Merge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My favourite DIR shop is set up with a Halcyon wall, and a non-Halcyon > > > wall. > > > > > > > > On the Halcyon wall, you find, all the good stuff like the wings, > > > harness/BP, reels, spools, liftbags, etc. On the non-Halcyon wall, > there is > > > an array of ridiculous stuff like snorkels, tank-bangers, and various > > > gadget-type stuff that is commonly found in most PADI OW classes. > > > > > > > > The Halcyon gear often sells itself on its own merit, however some > > > customers come in wanting a standard OW BC like they learned on, or that > > > their instructor used, or simply because it is cheaper. The staff will > > > recommend Halcyon and take the time answer any questions and give > complete > > > explanations. There are however some customers that cannot be swayed, > and > > > will end up buying half-a-dozen tank bangers so that they can signal > their > > > buddy the same way the cool PADI divemaster did on the boat. > > > > > > > > I do not frown on the dive shop for selling this kind of gear. This > is > > > one dive shop that has bent over backwards for me. There aren't many > shops > > > that will let me mix my own gas, fix my own gear, borrow gear or tools, > and > > > call me at home if there is a last minute chance to get diving on a > remote > > > wreck that I'd been trying unsuccessfully to dive for a couple months. > If > > > selling stroke gear keeps a shop like this in business, then I say "sell > > > more stroke gear". > > > > > > > > DIR is NOT for everybody. If a diver has made up their mind to buy a > > > Sherwood BC, then they will go out and find it. I just hope they find > it at > > > my local DIR shop to keep the good times a rollin' > > > > > > > > ss > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, terry michael wrote: > > > > > > > > > Tankboots are necessary for pool dives. As for rationalizing selling > or > > > stocking inferior dive equipment "products" being "OK" to make a buck. > > > That's complete stroke bullshit in my opinion. I'd personally rather > find > > > another line of work then betray principles that I believe in. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "Gertje"<gert.je@wo*.nl*> > > > > > To: ScottBonis@ao*.co*, jimholcomb@x-*.co*, > techdiver@aquanaut.com, > > > cavers@ca*.co*, quest@gu*.co* > > > > > Date: Fri Nov 09 03:19:59 PST 2001 > > > > > Subject: Re: [cavers] RE: GI and SS to Merge > > > > > > > > > > >Scott, > > > > > > > > > > > >Never been at Brownies, have you? > > > > > >[they even sell tankboots!!!!!!!! ;-) ] > > > > > >If there is ONE shop that's supposed to DIR, it's them. Two > > > GUE-instructors > > > > > >behind the counter, several GUE courses a year given. And EVEN THEY > > > have to > > > > > >sell strokegear to keep paying the bills. > > > > > >DIR won't feed you, cashflow does! > > > > > >By selling the shit and making money out of it, they can develop > new > > > > > >DIR-gear and keep our show on the road. > > > > > >They only can ADVISE the people that come in, to DIR. > > > > > > > > > > > >If you go to a hardwarestore for a tool, and they only sell a brand > you > > > have > > > > > >never heard of, and looks 'strangely differend' from the tool you > > > learned to > > > > > >work with in class, what would YOU do? I would go to another shop > that > > > gives > > > > > >me a choice. I MIGHT buy the 'strange' looking tool, but only after > I > > > had a > > > > > >chance to listen to the salesrep. and compare. > > > > > > > > > > > >Gertjan > > > > > >[the Netherlands] > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi Jim, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I am sending this message to three separate lists as your > message, to > > > > > >which I > > > > > >> am replying, was sent to these three same lists. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Jim, I guess that your message explains a major portion of the > > > difference > > > > > >> between you and me. You see I could never supply gear to anyone > that > > > I > > > > > >> thought was not the proper gear for that person to be using in > any > > > given > > > > > >> situation. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Your boast of << I sold tons of bullshit stroke gear ... <snip> > ... > > > folks > > > > > >> have got to sell stuff to pay the bills. You going to make my > house > > > > > >payment > > > > > >> while I sit on my ass and be a purist? >> , and the rest of your > > > message > > > > > >> indicating to me that you knew that what you were selling was not > > > > > >acceptable > > > > > >> gear at the time you sold it, is so repulsive that I find it hard > to > > > > > >contain > > > > > >> my disgust for your actions. It is people like you, using the > excuse > > > that > > > > > >"I > > > > > >> need to make a living," that are a detriment to the scuba diving > > > industry > > > > > >and > > > > > >> IMHO, just possibly the cause of various scuba accidents. "Farm > > > animal > > > > > >> stupid" is too kind for you because you knew that what you were > doing > > > was > > > > > >> wrong at the time you were doing it. Make a living some other > way, > > > but > > > > > >not > > > > > >> by knowingly placing divers in potentially unacceptably dangerous > > > > > >> predicaments. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> To me, there is no reason to ever supply a diver with > unacceptable > > > > > >equipment > > > > > >> for him or her to use in any given situation. Either supply > > > acceptable > > > > > >gear > > > > > >> or inform the diver that the proposed diving cannot be > accomplished > > > safely > > > > > >> with the other gear that you have presently for sale. And then > offer > > > to > > > > > >help > > > > > >> get (special order, alternate supplier, more expensive initially > but > > > > > >second > > > > > >> hand, etc.) alternative acceptable gear to satisfy the diver's > needs. > > > > > >This > > > > > >> is known as professionalism and any other course of action is, > IMHO > > > > > >grossly > > > > > >> irresponsible if not downright criminal. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I am certainly glad that your message is in the past tense << ... > > > until a > > > > > >> couple weeks ago, I ran a dive shop in Atlanta. >>, as I'd rather > not > > > need > > > > > >to > > > > > >> think about your still supplying unacceptable equipment to > divers. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> And you profess to support the DIR philosophy??? Is that "use > > > acceptable > > > > > >> equipment unless that doesn't sell and then Jim Holcomb can make > a > > > little > > > > > >> more money by having someone buy unacceptable equipment"? Just > whom > > > do > > > > > >you > > > > > >> think you're kidding? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> But then, this is just one instructor's opinion. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Take care and dive safe, Scott > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the > > > restraints > > > > > >and > > > > > >> scramble up out of the pit. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In a message dated 11/7/01 7:59:18 PM, jimholcomb@x-*.co* > > > writes: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> << Well, in a fucked up kind of way, I agree. But wouldn't it be > a > > > whole > > > > > >lot > > > > > >> more hypocritical to sell a stroke "stroke" gear. Up until a > couple > > > weeks > > > > > >> ago, I ran a dive shop in Atlanta. I sold tons of bullshit > stroke > > > gear to > > > > > >> folks. If you got to sell something to somebody to pay the bills > it > > > would > > > > > >> probably be better to sell them gear oriented toward the DIR > > > philosophy as > > > > > >> opposed to some of that shit I sold. My point being, folks have > got > > > to > > > > > >> sell stuff to pay the bills. You going to make my house payment > while > > > I > > > > > >sit > > > > > >> on my ass and be a purist? Better to sell DIR stuff to strokes > than > > > stroke > > > > > >> shit to strokes. Make any sense????? > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Jim Holcomb >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* > > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________ > > > > > GO.com Mail > > > > > Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* > > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* > For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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