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Andy,
It's time for the Political Science majors to sit down, shut up, and
watch how foriegn policy is expedited.
C.
Chris Elmore
PalmettoSoft Technologies Corp.
(803) 233-2001 (work)
(803) 348-3055 (mobile)
----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Schmidt <Andy_Schmidt@HM*.co*>
To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: Lines in the Sand
> >> Get a clue! Florida and Germany did NOT knowingly help these animals.
> Afghanistan did. <<
>
> Exactly my point.
>
> In their isolation, people in this country lack first-hand experiences and
a
> global perspective.
>
> As you apparently are starting to realize, in the war against Terrorism,
> borders and countries don't apply and are meaningless. Your politicians
are
> lulling you in the believe that attacking foreign territories will be
> anything but revenge.
>
> In reality, it would require a 3-prong approach:
>
> 1. Revenge and Punishment those Responsible
> This is accomplished by a war effort against responsible individuals,
> governments and their territory.
> This is what will happen sometime this year or so - and few will see
> anything wrong with that.
>
> 2. Prevent Recurrence
> This requires anti-terrorism law enforcement efforts.
> This is what will fall short after all the political energy, money and
> effort was expended on a "war".
>
> 3. Eliminating the breeding ground
> This is accomplished by assisting groups of nations in working on peaceful
> solutions to their inner problems, problems with their neighbors or entire
> regions.
> The U.S. realizes that and is actively working on that long term process.
>
>
> I have NO problem with avenging the victims! Just realize what you are
> spending your money on (revenge!) - and what not (eliminate the risk of
> terrorism against the U.S.!). You can tear up other countries until
> economic depression shuts down the finances - you are not doing it to wipe
> out terrorism, you are doing it to make the American public FEEL as if
they
> "did something about it" - and re-elect their leaders in a few years.
>
> >> Over time terrorist will be reduced to a small number of ineffective
> people. <<
>
> That is where you err. Terrorists are MOST effective as small, loosely
> connected groups of people drawing on a larger number of silent supporters
> in any number of civilized countries. Once you listen to your own
> intelligence community and anti-terrorism experts (not the armchair
Generals
> on this list), you will find out that a territorial war is not doing
> anything to address the problem - other that firm the resolve of those who
> survive in every other country in the world (including the U.S. itself!)
>
> The warfare against terrorism involves cells of tens or hundreds of
> individuals in countless civilized countries (including the U.S.),
countries
> that may or may NOT have suspicions about these individuals. If they do,
> then these countries are bound by due-process laws to act on their
> suspicions. In many case, basic-rights issues even prevent aggressive
> supervision or targeting specific groups, just based on profiling. To
give
> you an example, when Europe was fighting the RAF terrorists, they ran into
> major legal problems when merging national databases, accessing utility
> billing records for entire states - even though the unusual pattern of
> electric and gas use allowed them to pinpoint possible safe-houses.
>
> So learn from experience:
>
> The war against terrorism is not won against governments and their
> territories, it is fought INSIDE each country (including the U.S.) setting
> aside their own basic laws, giving special law enforcement agencies
> emergency powers to violate established laws, ignore basic privacy issues,
> permit spying and broad profiling against your own citizens and foreign
> nationals. Heck, you even scream, when Intel puts out a Pentium CPU with a
> serial number!
>
> It requires Congress to allow the FBI, CIA, NSA to have secret dossiers
> about their citizens, that citizens will have no right to know about.
These
> dossiers will contain personal information, suspicions, theories - and the
> subject may indeed have never broken any laws - and, may in reality really
> not be involved with anyone at all. Does that sound like going back in
> history to you? Does it sound like STASI or KGB to you? Yes, you will have
> to be willing to give up a lot of your accomplishments in civil rights and
> turn the clock back and accept the U.S. to become more of a police state.
>
> The war against Terrorism is NOT won in Afghanistan - it is a cold war
> fought in your own country. It is NOT won by sending soldiers abroad - it
is
> fought by giving up privileges at home. And with un-informed people like
> yourself, the writing is on the wall - America will go the
easy/conventional
> way (Step 1) and then go back to business as usual - skipping the REAL
fight
> (Step 2!).
>
> >> That is the problem with liberals. They try to twist the truth and
make
> everyone feel sorry for the
> criminals. I say it is time to feel sorry for the victims. To hell with
> the criminals. <<
>
> Hm - how about responding to something I actually wrote?
>
>
> Best Regards
> Andy Schmidt
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike G. [mailto:scuba561@ya*.co*]
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 09:53 AM
> To: Andy Schmidt; techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: RE: Lines in the Sand
>
>
> Andy-
>
> Are you trying to compare what Florida and Germany did
> with what Afghanistan has done?? Are you out of your
> f*ing mind?
>
> Get a clue! Florida and Germany did NOT knowingly
> help these animals. Afghanistan did.
>
> That is the problem with liberals. They try to twist
> the truth and make everyone feel sorry for the
> criminals. I say it is time to feel sorry for the
> victims. To hell with the criminals. Did you see the
> people in Pakistan dancing in the street? Do you
> realize that Afghanistan has known where Bin Laden was
> and did nothing to capture him- even though they know
> is is planning to kill people? They may not have
> known where/when/how Bin Laden was going to kill
> people, but they knew he was going to kill.
>
> If we make a couple examples (Afghanistan and Pakistan
> come to mind) other countries will not only NOT allow
> people like Bin Laden to stay in their country, but
> they will most likely help hunt them down and kill
> them. Over time terrorist will be reduced to a small
> number of ineffective people.
>
> Mike
>
> --- Andy Schmidt <Andy_Schmidt@HM*.co*> wrote:
> > Yep, let's start with the country that harbored
> > their training camp
> > (Florida).
> >
> > Then the country of residence and where they were
> > attending a technical
> > college (Germany).
> >
> > Not to forget the country of origin (Saudi
> > Arabia)...
> >
> > Hm... wait a minute... so may be we DO have to turn
> > on our brains after all?
> >
> > I'm all for punishing those who were responsible,
> > conspiring or otherwise
> > tolerated these activities. If it takes a war effort
> > - so be it. Those who
> > tell themselves there is a quick fix to the problem
> > are running through the
> > world with their eyes and ears closed. Nothing is
> > more certain then that any
> > reaction will lead to an even bigger
> > counter-reaction two to five years down
> > the road.
> >
> > That doesn't mean that punishment should be avoided
> > - just don't lie to
> > yourself that eliminating terrorists is somehow
> > equal to eliminating
> > terrorism. Just like other areas of civil and
> > political unrest in the past
> > 100 years: As long as a region is not at peace and
> > the U.S. finds itself
> > forced into taking one or the other side and
> > actively supporting one or the
> > other party, they will just as certain piss off the
> > opponents and be
> > vulnerable to their hatred. Why some Americans
> > assume that the U.S. can
> > dictate the battlefield of its foreign policies is
> > beyond me. For every
> > American-made or financed weapon fired somewhere in
> > the world, there is some
> > family member who instantly became your biggest
> > enemy. Most of them will
> > never have the financial and logistical opportunity
> > to act out their
> > revenge - but given enough decades in time, there
> > will always be a few who
> > are determined enough to bring devastation back to
> > the U.S.
> >
> > So do strike and strike hard - just do it knowingly
> > that this is only
> > another step in a bloody escalation that will go on
> > for a least the next
> > generation. It is as certain as hell, that more
> > building will tumble in the
> > decades to come - for a change, it will no longer
> > just be abroad. In the
> > long run, it is the peace process in the Middle East
> > that is the only hope
> > for a solution where countries in that region can
> > address their own
> > matters - without the U.S. being savior to one side
> > and devil to the other.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brad Wilson [mailto:ac4bw@ya*.co*]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 03:06 PM
> > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > Subject: Re: Lines in the Sand
> >
> >
> > Jim may sound harsh, but you have to realize what
> > just
> > happened to us. We have tried to be nice and these
> > jerks have attacked us over and over again. They
> > blew
> > up embassys, and we did little. Some jerk on a raft
> > took out a billion dollar warship, and we did
> > NOTHING.
> > Now, they kill thousands. And that doesn't even
> > count
> > the monetary damage to those who's businesses were
> > destroyed, people who now have no job, and the
> > massive
> > amount of just property damage. We are in a state of
> > total rage. I agree with what I heard my own
> > Senator,
> > Zell Miller (D-Georgia and a former Marine) said:
> >
> > "Bomb the HELL out of them." He continued saying, So
> > what if there is collaterial damage. They obviously
> > didn't care about innocent civilians, why should we
> > care about theirs. If they get in the way, that's
> > just
> > too bad.
> >
> > I say we turn those countries who harbor or have
> > anything to do with terrorists into a freaking
> > parking
> > lot. And if the innocent civilians don't want to be
> > hit, then they better dig in or get outta town.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > --- Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> wrote:
> > > No, no joke. This is all being funded by our oil
> > > dollars. We just go over
> > > there and take the damn oil, the fundamentalists
> > > have no more funds, problem
> > > solved.
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > Donate cash, emergency relief information
> >
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
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> >
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>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> Donate cash, emergency relief information
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
>
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