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Thanks Scott,
I appreciate your integrity and honesty.
Paul Berry
Southern Ocean Explorers
DIR-N.Z.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott and/or Julie Gudmundsen [mailto:gudmund@si*.co*]
Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 2:48 a.m.
To: deepdive
Subject: Re: CO detection
Appreciate the note. I've read Vance's book four times through and pretty
much have it memorized. I understand the adiabatic heating issue (although I
may not know how to spell it), but it is highly overrated.
I'm just telling the truth about the way I do it. I'm not writing a book on
it and worrying about people suing me if things go wrong.
Scott Gudmundsen
Vernal, Utah
----- Original Message -----
From: "deepdive" <deepdive@xt*.co*.nz*>
To: "TECHDIVER" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 12:26 AM
Subject: FW: CO detection
>
> Scott,
>
> I respect your experience in pp blending so far to date and recognise you
> "right" to make a point.
> Is this really a responsible message to be giving out as a reccomended
> viable practice and performance standard ,to goodness knows who out there
in
> the wide world of "loose units"?
>
> I find you "apparent attitude" towards O2 more than a little misleading...
> You only get away with it...until you don't.
> But, then again look at the O2 cleanliness of welding equipment for
> example???
> How clean is clean enough to get away with it?
>
> Where do you draw the line...The rule of thirds or just take it down
> halfway???
> Sure the chances of having an incident are in your favour,BUT so is diving
> in general and I personally have a deep respect for the hostile medium
which
> is my chosen forum for exploration.
> Including the combustible oxidizing nature of Oxygen,,,particularly
working
> at high partial pressures and filling in general.
> ADIABIATIC HEATING is a very real risk, also of concern is the insidious
> nature of O2 which allows it to ignite stainless steel,titanium,aluminium
> and other metals.
>
> I would thoroughly reccomend reading VANCE HARLOW"S "The Oxygen Hackers
> Companion" currently available from Airspeed Press for anyone interested
in
> home-brewing Nitrox or Trimix.
> It is an impeccable resource for the homebrewer...not a self interested
scam
> from a dive shop.
>
> With attitudes similar to those expressed to make your point, it's
> understandable some people don't even have a backup reg or even a
> buddy...and ignorantly justify their decision.
>
> Please recieve this post in the spirit with which it was written...just
> making a point.
>
> I suppose I'm just naturally cautious and like things done to the highest
> standard available and this is why I find the DIR system so appealing,but
> when my "arsehole starts to pucker" I take notice...
> MHO.
>
> Paul Berry
> Southern Ocean Explorers
> DIR-N.Z.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott and/or Julie Gudmundsen [mailto:gudmund@si*.co*]
> Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2001 8:05 a.m.
> To: Porter, Greg
> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List
> Subject: Re: CO detection
>
>
> Greg,
>
> I've made literally hundreds, maybe a thousand P.P. fills. I use regular
> compressor air from my regular old compressor. I fill pretty fast, I don't
> have time to fart around. I clean my tanks once a year with Simple Green,
I
> don't do anything to my regulators, including my 100% 02 regulator, which
> has a low pressure hose as well as a high pressure hose going to a
> submersible pressure gauge, both made of butyl rubber with no lining other
> than butyl rubber... which is a hydrocarbon if I've ever heard of one...
> it's a flipping petroleum product! Used it for over twenty years, never
> cleaned it.
>
> Dive industry/shop bullshit. Be a sucker and go buy an 02 safe regulator
and
> I'll buy your old one for $20!
>
> Scott Gudmundsen
> Vernal, Utah (soon moving to Carson City, Nevada to check out the diving
in
> Lake Tahoe!)
> My technical diving website at: www.fotofixer.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Porter, Greg" <Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co*>
> To: "Porter, Greg" <Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co*>;
> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; <Cetaceans@ya*.co*>;
> <vbtech@ci*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; "'Bill Wolk'"
> <BillWolk@ea*.ne*>
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:12 AM
> Subject: RE: CO detection
>
>
> > Hi Bill,
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Bill Wolk[SMTP:BillWolk@ea*.ne*]
> > >
> > > On 8/30/01 Porter, Greg, Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co* wrote
> > >
> > > >Given the possibility of having an undetected Oxygen flash while PP
> > > filling,
> > > >and given that the resultant Carbon Monoxide in the cylinder would be
> > > >tasteless, odorless, and lethal, is anyone testing fills with a CO
> > > detector
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > Greg -
> > >
> > > Before we get to the carbon monoxide detector, where did you come up
> with
> > > the idea that there's such a thing as an "undetected Oxygen flash" in
> the
> > > first place?
> > >
> > Heard it from a few different different divers and at least one dive
shop
> > technician. Didn't dream it up myself. If you know different give me
your
> > experience.
> >
> > > It sounds like another gas handling "monster in the closet story"
> foisted
> > > on the diving public ... <snip>
> > >
> > I assume from this statment that you don't know either....
> >
> > > Would everyone out there who has experienced a "detected Oxygen flash"
> > > please write Greg so he understands the magnitude of the problem he's
> > > trying to "fix."
> > >
> > That was the original intent of the post.... not sure you're adding
> anything
> > constructive here nor that anyone needs your permission to provide
input.
> > Again give your experience if you have any.
> >
> > > Let's start at the beginning: oxygen is an oxidizer. It is not itself
> > > combustible. For there to be an "oxygen flash," your tank already has
to
> > > be contaminated with something combustible and that fuel has to
ignite.
> > > Have you ever found oil in your tanks when they've been VIP'ed?
> > >
> > No. I'm talking about O2 cleaned cylinders PP filled and topped off with
> > appropriately filtered air.
> >
> > > If so, I have a few tips for you that are more important than the CO
> > > detector:
> > >
> > As the answer was no, the tips on dirty air are irrelevant.
> >
> > > The key to safe technical diving -- call it DIR or not -- is to
identify
> > > *real* problems and to solve them as simply as possible.
> > >
> > Agreed
> >
> > > Exaggerating problems that rarely exist in the real world and then
> coming
> > > up with
> > > convoluted solutions to solve these non-existent problems makes diving
> > > more dangerous, not less.
> > >
> > Purely based on your post I'm still not sure that an undetected O2 flash
> is
> > an 'Exaggerated problem rarely existing in the real world" because
you've
> > provided no input to the contrary other than your assumptions. Any real
> > experience you have in this regard would be meaningful input.
> >
> > It appears that all you're essentially saying is that CO contamination
> will
> > not occur if you have clean tanks and air fills. That's not the real
> world..
> > and that's not the attitude that PP filling is based on.
> >
> > I'm certainly no expert (hence the post to the Lists) but my
understanding
> > is that PP filling practices are based on the assumption that in this
real
> > world the cleaning of tanks and air may not remove all the combustible
> > hydrocarbons. Therefore we should PP fill the O2 very slowly just in
case
> > there are HC's present. Now let's say that we mess up and PP fill our
O2
> > too fast and lets assume that we actually did have some HC's find their
> way
> > into our 'clean' environment... we have combustion which produces CO...
> > ordorless, tasteless, and toxic.
> >
> > Hopefully now we're on the same page. So here are the pertinent
> questions:
> >
> > - Is this so rare that we needn't worry about it ?
> >
> > - Do we hear the combustion ?
> >
> > - Is there an inexpensive, quick, and easy method to check for CO in the
> > final fill ?
> >
> > As intended in the original post and hopefully clarified here.... inputs
> > from those with experience are appreciated.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > --
> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >
> >
>
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