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>much have it memorized. I understand the adiabatic heating issue (although I >may not know how to spell it), but it is highly overrated. You are full of sh*t in my opinion. Frictional heating, adiabatic, material and practical impingement issues certainly need to be addressed when working with 02. If you want to supply us with some facts then please do. >I'm just telling the truth about the way I do it. I'm not writing a book on >it and worrying about people suing me if things go wrong. Good thanks for the warning. Kind of puts things into perspective. Thanks for the debate. -----Original Message----- From: "deepdive"<deepdive@xt*.co*.nz*> To: "TECHDIVER"<techdiver@aquanaut.com> Date: Sat Sep 01 12:42:54 PDT 2001 Subject: Fw: CO detection >Thanks Scott, > I appreciate your integrity and honesty. > >Paul Berry >Southern Ocean Explorers >DIR-N.Z. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Scott and/or Julie Gudmundsen [mailto:gudmund@si*.co*] >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 2:48 a.m. >To: deepdive >Subject: Re: CO detection > > >Appreciate the note. I've read Vance's book four times through and pretty >much have it memorized. I understand the adiabatic heating issue (although I >may not know how to spell it), but it is highly overrated. > >I'm just telling the truth about the way I do it. I'm not writing a book on >it and worrying about people suing me if things go wrong. > >Scott Gudmundsen >Vernal, Utah >----- Original Message ----- >From: "deepdive" <deepdive@xt*.co*.nz*> >To: "TECHDIVER" <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 12:26 AM >Subject: FW: CO detection > > >> >> Scott, >> >> I respect your experience in pp blending so far to date and recognise you >> "right" to make a point. >> Is this really a responsible message to be giving out as a reccomended >> viable practice and performance standard ,to goodness knows who out there >in >> the wide world of "loose units"? >> >> I find you "apparent attitude" towards O2 more than a little misleading... >> You only get away with it...until you don't. >> But, then again look at the O2 cleanliness of welding equipment for >> example??? >> How clean is clean enough to get away with it? >> >> Where do you draw the line...The rule of thirds or just take it down >> halfway??? >> Sure the chances of having an incident are in your favour,BUT so is diving >> in general and I personally have a deep respect for the hostile medium >which >> is my chosen forum for exploration. >> Including the combustible oxidizing nature of Oxygen,,,particularly >working >> at high partial pressures and filling in general. >> ADIABIATIC HEATING is a very real risk, also of concern is the insidious >> nature of O2 which allows it to ignite stainless steel,titanium,aluminium >> and other metals. >> >> I would thoroughly reccomend reading VANCE HARLOW"S "The Oxygen Hackers >> Companion" currently available from Airspeed Press for anyone interested >in >> home-brewing Nitrox or Trimix. >> It is an impeccable resource for the homebrewer...not a self interested >scam >> from a dive shop. >> >> With attitudes similar to those expressed to make your point, it's >> understandable some people don't even have a backup reg or even a >> buddy...and ignorantly justify their decision. >> >> Please recieve this post in the spirit with which it was written...just >> making a point. >> >> I suppose I'm just naturally cautious and like things done to the highest >> standard available and this is why I find the DIR system so appealing,but >> when my "arsehole starts to pucker" I take notice... >> MHO. >> >> Paul Berry >> Southern Ocean Explorers >> DIR-N.Z. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott and/or Julie Gudmundsen [mailto:gudmund@si*.co*] >> Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2001 8:05 a.m. >> To: Porter, Greg >> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List >> Subject: Re: CO detection >> >> >> Greg, >> >> I've made literally hundreds, maybe a thousand P.P. fills. I use regular >> compressor air from my regular old compressor. I fill pretty fast, I don't >> have time to fart around. I clean my tanks once a year with Simple Green, >I >> don't do anything to my regulators, including my 100% 02 regulator, which >> has a low pressure hose as well as a high pressure hose going to a >> submersible pressure gauge, both made of butyl rubber with no lining other >> than butyl rubber... which is a hydrocarbon if I've ever heard of one... >> it's a flipping petroleum product! Used it for over twenty years, never >> cleaned it. >> >> Dive industry/shop bullshit. Be a sucker and go buy an 02 safe regulator >and >> I'll buy your old one for $20! >> >> Scott Gudmundsen >> Vernal, Utah (soon moving to Carson City, Nevada to check out the diving >in >> Lake Tahoe!) >> My technical diving website at: www.fotofixer.com >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Porter, Greg" <Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co*> >> To: "Porter, Greg" <Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co*>; >> <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; <Cetaceans@ya*.co*>; >> <vbtech@ci*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; "'Bill Wolk'" >> <BillWolk@ea*.ne*> >> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:12 AM >> Subject: RE: CO detection >> >> >> > Hi Bill, >> > >> > > ---------- >> > > From: Bill Wolk[SMTP:BillWolk@ea*.ne*] >> > > >> > > On 8/30/01 Porter, Greg, Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co* wrote >> > > >> > > >Given the possibility of having an undetected Oxygen flash while PP >> > > filling, >> > > >and given that the resultant Carbon Monoxide in the cylinder would be >> > > >tasteless, odorless, and lethal, is anyone testing fills with a CO >> > > detector >> > > >> > > [snip] >> > > >> > > Greg - >> > > >> > > Before we get to the carbon monoxide detector, where did you come up >> with >> > > the idea that there's such a thing as an "undetected Oxygen flash" in >> the >> > > first place? >> > > >> > Heard it from a few different different divers and at least one dive >shop >> > technician. Didn't dream it up myself. If you know different give me >your >> > experience. >> > >> > > It sounds like another gas handling "monster in the closet story" >> foisted >> > > on the diving public ... <snip> >> > > >> > I assume from this statment that you don't know either.... >> > >> > > Would everyone out there who has experienced a "detected Oxygen flash" >> > > please write Greg so he understands the magnitude of the problem he's >> > > trying to "fix." >> > > >> > That was the original intent of the post.... not sure you're adding >> anything >> > constructive here nor that anyone needs your permission to provide >input. >> > Again give your experience if you have any. >> > >> > > Let's start at the beginning: oxygen is an oxidizer. It is not itself >> > > combustible. For there to be an "oxygen flash," your tank already has >to >> > > be contaminated with something combustible and that fuel has to >ignite. >> > > Have you ever found oil in your tanks when they've been VIP'ed? >> > > >> > No. I'm talking about O2 cleaned cylinders PP filled and topped off with >> > appropriately filtered air. >> > >> > > If so, I have a few tips for you that are more important than the CO >> > > detector: >> > > >> > As the answer was no, the tips on dirty air are irrelevant. >> > >> > > The key to safe technical diving -- call it DIR or not -- is to >identify >> > > *real* problems and to solve them as simply as possible. >> > > >> > Agreed >> > >> > > Exaggerating problems that rarely exist in the real world and then >> coming >> > > up with >> > > convoluted solutions to solve these non-existent problems makes diving >> > > more dangerous, not less. >> > > >> > Purely based on your post I'm still not sure that an undetected O2 flash >> is >> > an 'Exaggerated problem rarely existing in the real world" because >you've >> > provided no input to the contrary other than your assumptions. Any real >> > experience you have in this regard would be meaningful input. >> > >> > It appears that all you're essentially saying is that CO contamination >> will >> > not occur if you have clean tanks and air fills. That's not the real >> world.. >> > and that's not the attitude that PP filling is based on. >> > >> > I'm certainly no expert (hence the post to the Lists) but my >understanding >> > is that PP filling practices are based on the assumption that in this >real >> > world the cleaning of tanks and air may not remove all the combustible >> > hydrocarbons. Therefore we should PP fill the O2 very slowly just in >case >> > there are HC's present. Now let's say that we mess up and PP fill our >O2 >> > too fast and lets assume that we actually did have some HC's find their >> way >> > into our 'clean' environment... we have combustion which produces CO... >> > ordorless, tasteless, and toxic. >> > >> > Hopefully now we're on the same page. So here are the pertinent >> questions: >> > >> > - Is this so rare that we needn't worry about it ? >> > >> > - Do we hear the combustion ? >> > >> > - Is there an inexpensive, quick, and easy method to check for CO in the >> > final fill ? >> > >> > As intended in the original post and hopefully clarified here.... inputs >> > from those with experience are appreciated. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > Greg >> > >> > -- >> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >> -- >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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