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Scott, I respect your experience in pp blending so far to date and recognise you "right" to make a point. Is this really a responsible message to be giving out as a reccomended viable practice and performance standard ,to goodness knows who out there in the wide world of "loose units"? I find you "apparent attitude" towards O2 more than a little misleading... You only get away with it...until you don't. But, then again look at the O2 cleanliness of welding equipment for example??? How clean is clean enough to get away with it? Where do you draw the line...The rule of thirds or just take it down halfway??? Sure the chances of having an incident are in your favour,BUT so is diving in general and I personally have a deep respect for the hostile medium which is my chosen forum for exploration. Including the combustible oxidizing nature of Oxygen,,,particularly working at high partial pressures and filling in general. ADIABIATIC HEATING is a very real risk, also of concern is the insidious nature of O2 which allows it to ignite stainless steel,titanium,aluminium and other metals. I would thoroughly reccomend reading VANCE HARLOW"S "The Oxygen Hackers Companion" currently available from Airspeed Press for anyone interested in home-brewing Nitrox or Trimix. It is an impeccable resource for the homebrewer...not a self interested scam from a dive shop. With attitudes similar to those expressed to make your point, it's understandable some people don't even have a backup reg or even a buddy...and ignorantly justify their decision. Please recieve this post in the spirit with which it was written...just making a point. I suppose I'm just naturally cautious and like things done to the highest standard available and this is why I find the DIR system so appealing,but when my "arsehole starts to pucker" I take notice... MHO. Paul Berry Southern Ocean Explorers DIR-N.Z. -----Original Message----- From: Scott and/or Julie Gudmundsen [mailto:gudmund@si*.co*] Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2001 8:05 a.m. To: Porter, Greg Cc: Techdiver Mailing List Subject: Re: CO detection Greg, I've made literally hundreds, maybe a thousand P.P. fills. I use regular compressor air from my regular old compressor. I fill pretty fast, I don't have time to fart around. I clean my tanks once a year with Simple Green, I don't do anything to my regulators, including my 100% 02 regulator, which has a low pressure hose as well as a high pressure hose going to a submersible pressure gauge, both made of butyl rubber with no lining other than butyl rubber... which is a hydrocarbon if I've ever heard of one... it's a flipping petroleum product! Used it for over twenty years, never cleaned it. Dive industry/shop bullshit. Be a sucker and go buy an 02 safe regulator and I'll buy your old one for $20! Scott Gudmundsen Vernal, Utah (soon moving to Carson City, Nevada to check out the diving in Lake Tahoe!) My technical diving website at: www.fotofixer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Porter, Greg" <Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co*> To: "Porter, Greg" <Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; <Cetaceans@ya*.co*>; <vbtech@ci*.co*>; <FLTechDiver@mikey.net>; "'Bill Wolk'" <BillWolk@ea*.ne*> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:12 AM Subject: RE: CO detection > Hi Bill, > > > ---------- > > From: Bill Wolk[SMTP:BillWolk@ea*.ne*] > > > > On 8/30/01 Porter, Greg, Gregory.Porter@AR*.Bo*.co* wrote > > > > >Given the possibility of having an undetected Oxygen flash while PP > > filling, > > >and given that the resultant Carbon Monoxide in the cylinder would be > > >tasteless, odorless, and lethal, is anyone testing fills with a CO > > detector > > > > [snip] > > > > Greg - > > > > Before we get to the carbon monoxide detector, where did you come up with > > the idea that there's such a thing as an "undetected Oxygen flash" in the > > first place? > > > Heard it from a few different different divers and at least one dive shop > technician. Didn't dream it up myself. If you know different give me your > experience. > > > It sounds like another gas handling "monster in the closet story" foisted > > on the diving public ... <snip> > > > I assume from this statment that you don't know either.... > > > Would everyone out there who has experienced a "detected Oxygen flash" > > please write Greg so he understands the magnitude of the problem he's > > trying to "fix." > > > That was the original intent of the post.... not sure you're adding anything > constructive here nor that anyone needs your permission to provide input. > Again give your experience if you have any. > > > Let's start at the beginning: oxygen is an oxidizer. It is not itself > > combustible. For there to be an "oxygen flash," your tank already has to > > be contaminated with something combustible and that fuel has to ignite. > > Have you ever found oil in your tanks when they've been VIP'ed? > > > No. I'm talking about O2 cleaned cylinders PP filled and topped off with > appropriately filtered air. > > > If so, I have a few tips for you that are more important than the CO > > detector: > > > As the answer was no, the tips on dirty air are irrelevant. > > > The key to safe technical diving -- call it DIR or not -- is to identify > > *real* problems and to solve them as simply as possible. > > > Agreed > > > Exaggerating problems that rarely exist in the real world and then coming > > up with > > convoluted solutions to solve these non-existent problems makes diving > > more dangerous, not less. > > > Purely based on your post I'm still not sure that an undetected O2 flash is > an 'Exaggerated problem rarely existing in the real world" because you've > provided no input to the contrary other than your assumptions. Any real > experience you have in this regard would be meaningful input. > > It appears that all you're essentially saying is that CO contamination will > not occur if you have clean tanks and air fills. That's not the real world.. > and that's not the attitude that PP filling is based on. > > I'm certainly no expert (hence the post to the Lists) but my understanding > is that PP filling practices are based on the assumption that in this real > world the cleaning of tanks and air may not remove all the combustible > hydrocarbons. Therefore we should PP fill the O2 very slowly just in case > there are HC's present. Now let's say that we mess up and PP fill our O2 > too fast and lets assume that we actually did have some HC's find their way > into our 'clean' environment... we have combustion which produces CO... > ordorless, tasteless, and toxic. > > Hopefully now we're on the same page. So here are the pertinent questions: > > - Is this so rare that we needn't worry about it ? > > - Do we hear the combustion ? > > - Is there an inexpensive, quick, and easy method to check for CO in the > final fill ? > > As intended in the original post and hopefully clarified here.... inputs > from those with experience are appreciated. > > Best regards, > Greg > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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