What is this rec.scuba crap doing on Techdiver to begin with? Those idiots
over on rec.scuba are beyond all salvation. Hardcore rec divers live in an
alternate reality, they cannot relate to tech diving anymore than a mole can
relate to walking on the moon.

That entire list and the idiots who hang out over there are not worth the
electricity it takes to run a computer.

The only thing we can do is let Darwin decide who can progress to technical
diving. We will be waiting for them over here in Techdiver if and when they
survive. Then maybe we can teach them something.

  Jim
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
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> From: Jack Farmer <jack@ma*.th*.co*>
> Organization: The Crusader BBS
> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 06:27:12 -0700
> To: Jim Holcomb <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>
> Cc: Techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack
> 
> And why NOT call a spade a spade? And why SHOULD Bullshit be ALLOWED in the
> first place?
> Re-read what i wrote it's ALL explained in there IF you READ.
> 
> L8R
> 
> Jim Holcomb wrote:
> 
>> Why do you NEED to call a spade a spade.  Why do you NEED to wade into the
>> bullshit.  Look Jack, the DIR philosophy can stand on its own merits without
>> a bunch of bullshit.  You aren't going to convert the opponents by arguing
>> with them - but by explaining specific issues in a rational tone the word
>> will be out there for the others to read. Here is an example, several days
>> ago on one of the recreational forums someone was asking something about
>> rigging a pony.  This was my response:
>> http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=330635&t=330567
>> Not once did I even mention DIR - not once did I say the dude was an idiot
>> for contemplating his idea.  As the thread unfolded the two individuals
>> began to rethink their idea.  That's all you can do.  Say what you got to
>> say and move on to the next topic or question.  Don't involve yourself in
>> the bullshit.
>> Jim
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jack Farmer" <jack@ma*.th*.co*>
>> To: "Jim Holcomb" <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>; "Andrew Georgitsis"
>> <andrewg@fi*.co*>; "anthony rue" <true@gu*.co*>; "Chris Werner"
>> <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*>; "Dan Volker" <dan@sf*.co*>; "Jarrod
>> Jablonski" <JJ@gu*.co*>; "John Walker" <techdive@ea*.ne*>; "MHK"
>> <mhkane@pr*.ne*>; "Michael Hobson" <mhobson@pa*.ne*>; "pina"
>> <pina3@be*.ne*>; "Sally Hooper" <sallyhpr@ea*.ne*>; "tleemay"
>> <tleemay@ne*.ne*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
>> Cc: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "Techdiver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 3:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack
>> 
>>> Well here at least we are in partial agreement. YES DIR will grow from the
>> rec
>>> divers somewhat interested in Tech side of things. Right now over there
>> with
>>> gray etc on the loose anyone even asks a question about DIR gets swamped
>> with
>>> bullshit and maybe you don't remember what it's like at that level BUT new
>>> divers ARE impressed by NAMES attacking esp when no NAMES are in there.
>> BUT ya
>>> get a few guy's who call a spade a spade and are NOT afraid to wade in
>> SHIT and
>>> are willing to go tooth and nail even when they are NOT qualified that
>> says to
>>> the new guy hey there SOMETHING there maybe it's shit maybe it's NOT but
>> it is
>>> SURE as hell getting people all fired up maybe I'll go check it out for
>> myself.
>>> 
>>> THESE are the LURKERS who will hardly ever post. I've gotten many a
>> PRIVATE
>>> message thanking me for at least presenting a different side and being
>> REAL
>>> about it in a real way. They've told me they went on to the GUE ot WKPP
>> site to
>>> see for them selves.
>>> 
>>> These are the ones I'm talking to NOT rec.scuba know it all bull shit
>> artists
>>> like gray etc.
>>> 
>>> Am I the best there is? HELL NO. I'm just in there trying. WHY? Well as
>> you
>>> point out I'm NOT a TECH diver I'm NOT a NAME BUT I do know enough from my
>> own
>>> experience to know JUST how NEEDED DIR is esp for the NEW guy like me and
>> many
>>> others.
>>> 
>>> The main reason I'm CC'ing in so many is that I'd like THEIR opinion  not
>> just
>>> yours or a few others.
>>> 
>>> L8R
>>> 
>>> Jim Holcomb wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Well, IMHO the DIR movement is going to grow through recreational divers
>>>> with an interest in technical diving.  Most of those who are already
>> cave
>>>> diving / wreck diving ect..  beyond recreational limits are already
>> doing it
>>>> their way.  Be it DIR or whatever.  Where the advocates of DIR can have
>> a
>>>> profound effect is with these recreational divers.  The exposure they
>> are
>>>> currently getting in technical discussions consist of Gray on one side
>> and
>>>> Farmer "articulating" the DIR philosophy.  That's kinda fucked up -
>> don't ya
>>>> think? The first exposure some of these folks have to DIR is out of
>> Farmer's
>>>> mouth!  As I've told Dan, I will address anything I PERSONALLY know
>> about
>>>> through my OWN limited experience - but what a lot of these various
>> forums
>>>> need are experienced DIR advocates who can articulate a message to the
>>>> uninformed without pissing all over their foreheads. THAT is where the
>>>> change will take place - NOT after someone has already bought $10,000
>> worth
>>>> of dive shop to clip off to themselves.  Get them before they take the
>> first
>>>> Cavern class OR, better yet, get them before they take their Advanced
>> O/W
>>>> class.
>>>> 
>>>> Jim
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
>>>> To: "Dan Volker" <dan@sf*.co*>; "Jack Farmer"
>>>> <jack@ma*.th*.co*>; "Jim Holcomb" <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>;
>>>> "Andrew Georgitsis" <andrewg@fi*.co*>; "anthony rue" <true@gu*.co*>;
>>>> "Chris Werner" <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*>; "Jarrod Jablonski"
>>>> <JJ@gu*.co*>; "John Walker" <techdive@ea*.ne*>; "MHK"
>>>> <mhkane@pr*.ne*>; "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>; "tleemay"
>>>> <tleemay@ne*.ne*>
>>>> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:03 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: Word of advice, Jack
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dan, we can't post there because we can not go into enough background
>> info
>>>>> to get these people to where they can understand what we are talking
>>>> about.
>>>>> They know you and you know how to deal with them. I can not be talking
>> a
>>>>> serious talk and have a piece of shit like Mike Gray yapping at me.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just break is down to two components: bullshit and diving. Tell Gray
>> and
>>>> the
>>>>> other morons to skip the bullshit and discuss the diving. They can not
>> do
>>>> it
>>>>> intelligently, so they should be no problem.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Dan Volker [mailto:dan@sf*.co*]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:33 PM
>>>>> To: Jack Farmer; Jim Holcomb; Andrew Georgitsis; anthony rue; Chris
>>>>> Werner; Jarrod Jablonski; John Walker; MHK; pina; tleemay; Trey
>>>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>>> Subject: RE: Word of advice, Jack
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> REc.scuba has a couple of anti- DIR people with huge amounts of time
>> on
>>>>> their hands, and an axe to grind against any DIR idea or person. Mike
>> Gray
>>>>> is one, Dan Brakuk is another. Gray actually created a "movement" in
>> which
>>>>> he has been getting recreational divers to "want" to call themselves
>>>>> "Strokes", and he calls himself a member of "Team Stroke".
>>>>> 
>>>>> While Jack Farmer has made few friends on rec.scuba with his style of
>>>>> posting, if he has the time, and wants to throw the bullshit flag at
>> Mike
>>>>> Gray several times per day, that might not be such a bad thing ;-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> As long as Jack does not actually "represent" DIR, and as I remember,
>> he
>>>> has
>>>>> stated that he does "NOT"  on multiple occaisions, he can be a
>> positive
>>>>> force--in that he could "tie up" an extremely negative force ( Mike
>> Gray).
>>>>> To this end, I'd tell Jack to "go get'em ".
>>>>> 
>>>>> Better still, a few GUE or WKPP trained divers could post more on
>>>> rec.scuba
>>>>> , and occaisionally get a WKPP or GUE endorsement  ( George or Jarrod)
>> for
>>>> a
>>>>> controversial position which is being argued in one of the longer
>> threads.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Dan Volker
>>>>> www.sfdj.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: jack@we*.th*.co*
>> [mailto:jack@we*.th*.co*]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Jack Farmer
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 4:45 PM
>>>>> To: Jim Holcomb; Andrew Georgitsis; anthony rue; Chris Werner; Dan
>>>>> Volker; Jarrod Jablonski; John Walker; MHK; pina; tleemay; Trey
>>>>> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> OK Jim #1 I'm in NO WAY trying to be a cheer leader for anyone.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If that's the impression you got it's WRONG.
>>>>> 
>>>>> #2. I'm NOT nor ever WAS trying to sell anything to anyone and stated
>> MANY
>>>>> times I spoke ONLY for myself and my own experiences and opinions.
>> When
>>>>> people
>>>>> there twist that to mean what they want it to then argue about what
>> THEY
>>>>> think
>>>>> I MEANT rather that what i plainly SAID I could care less what THEIR
>>>> opinion
>>>>> is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> #3. It's been my experience from lurking on rec.scuba for several
>> years
>>>>> BEFORE
>>>>> I ever posted anything that there are a few figure heads in there who
>> make
>>>>> up
>>>>> that cliché and THEY run rec.scuba the rest follow along. Mike Gray,
>>>> PopEye
>>>>> to
>>>>> name 2 of the more obvious ones. Then there is a guy names ZACK whom I
>>>>> forced
>>>>> over several days to admit publicly there he's lied about a statement
>> he's
>>>>> made
>>>>> about something Trey was supposed to have done that i called him a
>> liar
>>>> on.
>>>>> 
>>>>> These are the guy's I'm out to deal with NOT CONVINCE OR CONVERT just
>> show
>>>>> up
>>>>> for what they are.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Frankly George can speak for himself and does not need me OR you to
>> speak
>>>>> for
>>>>> him I don't and never tried to. if he wants me to shut up HE'll be the
>> one
>>>>> to
>>>>> tell me and until he does I'll assume he could care less and do what i
>>>> feel
>>>>> like like the rest of us do.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dive Safe.
>>>>> 
>>>>> L8R
>>>>> 
>>>>> Jim Holcomb wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I know we have already discussed this once, but let's try again.
>> The
>>>>> REASON
>>>>>> why some people seem to carry more influence on rec.scuba than they
>>>> should
>>>>>> is because there are some (with no personal technical experience)
>> that
>>>>>> insist on trying to be a cheerleader for George and his team.  When
>> your
>>>>>> general diving population reads some of these folks posts and later
>>>> learn
>>>>>> that they have no personal experience in the area they are trying to
>>>> speak
>>>>>> it adds credibility to those who have some technical experience but
>>>> insist
>>>>>> on doing it wrong.  The folks on rec.scuba are rec divers.  They
>> will
>>>>> listen
>>>>>> to the person who seems to have the most experience on a particular
>>>>>> subject - right or wrong. On the flip side - when folks lacking
>>>> experience
>>>>>> in a particular arena attempt selling of a philosophy it results in
>> the
>>>>> rest
>>>>>> of us being called DIR fanatics, mindless drones, George wannabes,
>> WKPP
>>>>>> wannabes and the list goes on.
>>>>>> With George and his team's list of accomplishments, they are quite
>>>> capable
>>>>>> of spreading the word and educating the recreational diving
>> population,
>>>> in
>>>>>> general, and the technical diving population, specifically.
>>>>>> So as a favor to me and many other inexperienced cave and wreck
>> divers
>>>> who
>>>>>> have adopted the DIR philosophy toward our
>>>>> diving..........Please......Shut
>>>>>> up!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jim
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jack Farmer" <jack@ma*.th*.co*>
>>>>>> To: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "Sally Hooper"
>> <sallyhpr@ea*.ne*>
>>>>>> Cc: "Marie" <scubagirl@di*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:18 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: DCS incident
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ya know Trey over in rec.scuba HE would be considered to be a
>> supreme
>>>>>> authority
>>>>>>> on Tech diving.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Man it just keeps going on and on and on and on etc.......
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I finally REALLY understand why you seem at times short tempered.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> hahaha
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Safe Diving.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> L8R
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Trey wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Marie, you are a complete moron. I run the most successful dive
>>>>> project
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> diving and have LONG AGO sought out and used the real resources
>> in
>>>>> this
>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>> that have allowed us to do what we do so successfully, and have
>>>>>> accumulated
>>>>>>>> a track record that you will never understand, as well as
>> developed
>>>>>>>> decompression techniques that are now recognized as the correct
>> way
>>>> to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> this, and have nothing to do with the slop out of DAN , PADI or
>>>> Navy.
>>>>>> Why
>>>>>>>> don't you find out who and what we are before you get on here
>> like
>>>> an
>>>>>> idiot
>>>>>>>> and start recommending that we all go re read our PADI tables.
>>>> Should
>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> stay three squares from a black box, Marie, or is the good "doc"
>>>> still
>>>>>>>> trying to figure that one out?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Notice that the original question addressed me, not you, and the
>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>> answer was given. This is not rec scuba, by the way. If you
>> think
>>>> the
>>>>>> word
>>>>>>>> "bullshit" is "profanity", then maybe you should stop
>> bullshitting.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'll start sending everyone to you , PADI and DAN when they ask
>> me a
>>>>>> deco
>>>>>>>> question. Your vast experience reading "Alert Diver" will be a
>> big
>>>>> help
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> them all, I am sure.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Marie [mailto:scubagirl@di*.co*]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:03 PM
>>>>>>>> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com; trey@ne*.co*
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: DCS incident
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Well Trey,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Here are some tips for you:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 1)  Look before you leap.
>>>>>>>> 2)  That looks like a pretty nasty case of hoof in mouth.
>>>>>>>> 3)  It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth
>> and
>>>>> remove
>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> doubt.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> All I was trying to do was help you guys out, but you obviously
>>>> don't
>>>>>> care
>>>>>>>> to know the truth.  If you were interested in expanding your
>>>>> knowledge,
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> would have looked into what I said before you open your mouth
>> and
>>>>> spewed
>>>>>>>> profanity (obviously the only way you know how to communicate).
>> Try
>>>>>>>> checking with DAN or PADI or try reading any one of the over 100
>>>>>> studies,
>>>>>>>> articles, and papers he has had published. Or contact the
>> Undersea
>>>>>> Medical
>>>>>>>> Society about the many presentations he has given or
>> participated
>>>> in,
>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> contact the Undersea Hyperbaric Medical Society and find out why
>> Dr.
>>>>>> Powell
>>>>>>>> is a high respected member.  Or you could contact NEDU (Navy
>>>>>> Experimental
>>>>>>>> Dive Unit).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> For any of the rest of you who may be interested in expanding
>> your
>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>>> of DCS with more than just Trey's hot air, feel free to follow
>> up on
>>>>> any
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the resources I have mentioned.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Marie
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> trey@ne*.co* wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. My favorite line here is "during which time he
>> directed
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> human-subject tests of the DSAT/PADI Recreational Dive
>> Planner."
>>>>>>>>> This give
>>>>>>>>> new meaning to the term "face the wheel".
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The fact is that the guys who know the most about this are the
>>>>>>>>> ones who work
>>>>>>>>> with sources who actually are involved in serious diving . If
>>>>>>>>> this guy had
>>>>>>>>> any contribution to make to this game, we'd know about it.
>> What
>>>>>>>>> he has is
>>>>>>>>> the party line that does not work and is why we see these
>>>>>>>>> accidents. Wake up
>>>>>>>>> and smell reality.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The Navy comment is also just too funny.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>>>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>>>>> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> You Don't HAVE to be NUTS to be a SysAdmin./WebMaster. BUT it Helps!
>>>>> http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com
>>>>> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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>>>>> PS PE Y PGP- t-- 5 X- R- tv+ b++ DI++++ D G- e h--- r+++ z+++
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
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>>> 
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>>> http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> --
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> 
> --
> You Don't HAVE to be NUTS to be a SysAdmin./WebMaster. BUT it Helps!
> http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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> 
> 
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