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And why NOT call a spade a spade? And why SHOULD Bullshit be ALLOWED in the
first place?
Re-read what i wrote it's ALL explained in there IF you READ.
L8R
Jim Holcomb wrote:
> Why do you NEED to call a spade a spade. Why do you NEED to wade into the
> bullshit. Look Jack, the DIR philosophy can stand on its own merits without
> a bunch of bullshit. You aren't going to convert the opponents by arguing
> with them - but by explaining specific issues in a rational tone the word
> will be out there for the others to read. Here is an example, several days
> ago on one of the recreational forums someone was asking something about
> rigging a pony. This was my response:
> http://www.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=330635&t=330567
> Not once did I even mention DIR - not once did I say the dude was an idiot
> for contemplating his idea. As the thread unfolded the two individuals
> began to rethink their idea. That's all you can do. Say what you got to
> say and move on to the next topic or question. Don't involve yourself in
> the bullshit.
> Jim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack Farmer" <jack@ma*.th*.co*>
> To: "Jim Holcomb" <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>; "Andrew Georgitsis"
> <andrewg@fi*.co*>; "anthony rue" <true@gu*.co*>; "Chris Werner"
> <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*>; "Dan Volker" <dan@sf*.co*>; "Jarrod
> Jablonski" <JJ@gu*.co*>; "John Walker" <techdive@ea*.ne*>; "MHK"
> <mhkane@pr*.ne*>; "Michael Hobson" <mhobson@pa*.ne*>; "pina"
> <pina3@be*.ne*>; "Sally Hooper" <sallyhpr@ea*.ne*>; "tleemay"
> <tleemay@ne*.ne*>; "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
> Cc: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "Techdiver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 3:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack
>
> > Well here at least we are in partial agreement. YES DIR will grow from the
> rec
> > divers somewhat interested in Tech side of things. Right now over there
> with
> > gray etc on the loose anyone even asks a question about DIR gets swamped
> with
> > bullshit and maybe you don't remember what it's like at that level BUT new
> > divers ARE impressed by NAMES attacking esp when no NAMES are in there.
> BUT ya
> > get a few guy's who call a spade a spade and are NOT afraid to wade in
> SHIT and
> > are willing to go tooth and nail even when they are NOT qualified that
> says to
> > the new guy hey there SOMETHING there maybe it's shit maybe it's NOT but
> it is
> > SURE as hell getting people all fired up maybe I'll go check it out for
> myself.
> >
> > THESE are the LURKERS who will hardly ever post. I've gotten many a
> PRIVATE
> > message thanking me for at least presenting a different side and being
> REAL
> > about it in a real way. They've told me they went on to the GUE ot WKPP
> site to
> > see for them selves.
> >
> > These are the ones I'm talking to NOT rec.scuba know it all bull shit
> artists
> > like gray etc.
> >
> > Am I the best there is? HELL NO. I'm just in there trying. WHY? Well as
> you
> > point out I'm NOT a TECH diver I'm NOT a NAME BUT I do know enough from my
> own
> > experience to know JUST how NEEDED DIR is esp for the NEW guy like me and
> many
> > others.
> >
> > The main reason I'm CC'ing in so many is that I'd like THEIR opinion not
> just
> > yours or a few others.
> >
> > L8R
> >
> > Jim Holcomb wrote:
> >
> > > Well, IMHO the DIR movement is going to grow through recreational divers
> > > with an interest in technical diving. Most of those who are already
> cave
> > > diving / wreck diving ect.. beyond recreational limits are already
> doing it
> > > their way. Be it DIR or whatever. Where the advocates of DIR can have
> a
> > > profound effect is with these recreational divers. The exposure they
> are
> > > currently getting in technical discussions consist of Gray on one side
> and
> > > Farmer "articulating" the DIR philosophy. That's kinda fucked up -
> don't ya
> > > think? The first exposure some of these folks have to DIR is out of
> Farmer's
> > > mouth! As I've told Dan, I will address anything I PERSONALLY know
> about
> > > through my OWN limited experience - but what a lot of these various
> forums
> > > need are experienced DIR advocates who can articulate a message to the
> > > uninformed without pissing all over their foreheads. THAT is where the
> > > change will take place - NOT after someone has already bought $10,000
> worth
> > > of dive shop to clip off to themselves. Get them before they take the
> first
> > > Cavern class OR, better yet, get them before they take their Advanced
> O/W
> > > class.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>
> > > To: "Dan Volker" <dan@sf*.co*>; "Jack Farmer"
> > > <jack@ma*.th*.co*>; "Jim Holcomb" <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>;
> > > "Andrew Georgitsis" <andrewg@fi*.co*>; "anthony rue" <true@gu*.co*>;
> > > "Chris Werner" <clw5232@ga*.ac*.fs*.ed*>; "Jarrod Jablonski"
> > > <JJ@gu*.co*>; "John Walker" <techdive@ea*.ne*>; "MHK"
> > > <mhkane@pr*.ne*>; "pina" <pina3@be*.ne*>; "tleemay"
> > > <tleemay@ne*.ne*>
> > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:03 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Word of advice, Jack
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dan, we can't post there because we can not go into enough background
> info
> > > > to get these people to where they can understand what we are talking
> > > about.
> > > > They know you and you know how to deal with them. I can not be talking
> a
> > > > serious talk and have a piece of shit like Mike Gray yapping at me.
> > > >
> > > > Just break is down to two components: bullshit and diving. Tell Gray
> and
> > > the
> > > > other morons to skip the bullshit and discuss the diving. They can not
> do
> > > it
> > > > intelligently, so they should be no problem.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Dan Volker [mailto:dan@sf*.co*]
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:33 PM
> > > > To: Jack Farmer; Jim Holcomb; Andrew Georgitsis; anthony rue; Chris
> > > > Werner; Jarrod Jablonski; John Walker; MHK; pina; tleemay; Trey
> > > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > > Subject: RE: Word of advice, Jack
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > REc.scuba has a couple of anti- DIR people with huge amounts of time
> on
> > > > their hands, and an axe to grind against any DIR idea or person. Mike
> Gray
> > > > is one, Dan Brakuk is another. Gray actually created a "movement" in
> which
> > > > he has been getting recreational divers to "want" to call themselves
> > > > "Strokes", and he calls himself a member of "Team Stroke".
> > > >
> > > > While Jack Farmer has made few friends on rec.scuba with his style of
> > > > posting, if he has the time, and wants to throw the bullshit flag at
> Mike
> > > > Gray several times per day, that might not be such a bad thing ;-)
> > > >
> > > > As long as Jack does not actually "represent" DIR, and as I remember,
> he
> > > has
> > > > stated that he does "NOT" on multiple occaisions, he can be a
> positive
> > > > force--in that he could "tie up" an extremely negative force ( Mike
> Gray).
> > > > To this end, I'd tell Jack to "go get'em ".
> > > >
> > > > Better still, a few GUE or WKPP trained divers could post more on
> > > rec.scuba
> > > > , and occaisionally get a WKPP or GUE endorsement ( George or Jarrod)
> for
> > > a
> > > > controversial position which is being argued in one of the longer
> threads.
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Dan Volker
> > > > www.sfdj.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: jack@we*.th*.co*
> [mailto:jack@we*.th*.co*]On
> > > > Behalf Of Jack Farmer
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 4:45 PM
> > > > To: Jim Holcomb; Andrew Georgitsis; anthony rue; Chris Werner; Dan
> > > > Volker; Jarrod Jablonski; John Walker; MHK; pina; tleemay; Trey
> > > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > > Subject: Re: Word of advice, Jack
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OK Jim #1 I'm in NO WAY trying to be a cheer leader for anyone.
> > > >
> > > > If that's the impression you got it's WRONG.
> > > >
> > > > #2. I'm NOT nor ever WAS trying to sell anything to anyone and stated
> MANY
> > > > times I spoke ONLY for myself and my own experiences and opinions.
> When
> > > > people
> > > > there twist that to mean what they want it to then argue about what
> THEY
> > > > think
> > > > I MEANT rather that what i plainly SAID I could care less what THEIR
> > > opinion
> > > > is.
> > > >
> > > > #3. It's been my experience from lurking on rec.scuba for several
> years
> > > > BEFORE
> > > > I ever posted anything that there are a few figure heads in there who
> make
> > > > up
> > > > that cliché and THEY run rec.scuba the rest follow along. Mike Gray,
> > > PopEye
> > > > to
> > > > name 2 of the more obvious ones. Then there is a guy names ZACK whom I
> > > > forced
> > > > over several days to admit publicly there he's lied about a statement
> he's
> > > > made
> > > > about something Trey was supposed to have done that i called him a
> liar
> > > on.
> > > >
> > > > These are the guy's I'm out to deal with NOT CONVINCE OR CONVERT just
> show
> > > > up
> > > > for what they are.
> > > >
> > > > Frankly George can speak for himself and does not need me OR you to
> speak
> > > > for
> > > > him I don't and never tried to. if he wants me to shut up HE'll be the
> one
> > > > to
> > > > tell me and until he does I'll assume he could care less and do what i
> > > feel
> > > > like like the rest of us do.
> > > >
> > > > Dive Safe.
> > > >
> > > > L8R
> > > >
> > > > Jim Holcomb wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I know we have already discussed this once, but let's try again.
> The
> > > > REASON
> > > > > why some people seem to carry more influence on rec.scuba than they
> > > should
> > > > > is because there are some (with no personal technical experience)
> that
> > > > > insist on trying to be a cheerleader for George and his team. When
> your
> > > > > general diving population reads some of these folks posts and later
> > > learn
> > > > > that they have no personal experience in the area they are trying to
> > > speak
> > > > > it adds credibility to those who have some technical experience but
> > > insist
> > > > > on doing it wrong. The folks on rec.scuba are rec divers. They
> will
> > > > listen
> > > > > to the person who seems to have the most experience on a particular
> > > > > subject - right or wrong. On the flip side - when folks lacking
> > > experience
> > > > > in a particular arena attempt selling of a philosophy it results in
> the
> > > > rest
> > > > > of us being called DIR fanatics, mindless drones, George wannabes,
> WKPP
> > > > > wannabes and the list goes on.
> > > > > With George and his team's list of accomplishments, they are quite
> > > capable
> > > > > of spreading the word and educating the recreational diving
> population,
> > > in
> > > > > general, and the technical diving population, specifically.
> > > > > So as a favor to me and many other inexperienced cave and wreck
> divers
> > > who
> > > > > have adopted the DIR philosophy toward our
> > > > diving..........Please......Shut
> > > > > up!
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Jack Farmer" <jack@ma*.th*.co*>
> > > > > To: "Trey" <trey@ne*.co*>; "Sally Hooper"
> <sallyhpr@ea*.ne*>
> > > > > Cc: "Marie" <scubagirl@di*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 9:18 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: DCS incident
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ya know Trey over in rec.scuba HE would be considered to be a
> supreme
> > > > > authority
> > > > > > on Tech diving.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Man it just keeps going on and on and on and on etc.......
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I finally REALLY understand why you seem at times short tempered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Safe Diving.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > L8R
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Trey wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Marie, you are a complete moron. I run the most successful dive
> > > > project
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > diving and have LONG AGO sought out and used the real resources
> in
> > > > this
> > > > > game
> > > > > > > that have allowed us to do what we do so successfully, and have
> > > > > accumulated
> > > > > > > a track record that you will never understand, as well as
> developed
> > > > > > > decompression techniques that are now recognized as the correct
> way
> > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > > this, and have nothing to do with the slop out of DAN , PADI or
> > > Navy.
> > > > > Why
> > > > > > > don't you find out who and what we are before you get on here
> like
> > > an
> > > > > idiot
> > > > > > > and start recommending that we all go re read our PADI tables.
> > > Should
> > > > we
> > > > > > > stay three squares from a black box, Marie, or is the good "doc"
> > > still
> > > > > > > trying to figure that one out?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Notice that the original question addressed me, not you, and the
> > > > correct
> > > > > > > answer was given. This is not rec scuba, by the way. If you
> think
> > > the
> > > > > word
> > > > > > > "bullshit" is "profanity", then maybe you should stop
> bullshitting.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll start sending everyone to you , PADI and DAN when they ask
> me a
> > > > > deco
> > > > > > > question. Your vast experience reading "Alert Diver" will be a
> big
> > > > help
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > them all, I am sure.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Marie [mailto:scubagirl@di*.co*]
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:03 PM
> > > > > > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com; trey@ne*.co*
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: DCS incident
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well Trey,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here are some tips for you:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) Look before you leap.
> > > > > > > 2) That looks like a pretty nasty case of hoof in mouth.
> > > > > > > 3) It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth
> and
> > > > remove
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > doubt.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All I was trying to do was help you guys out, but you obviously
> > > don't
> > > > > care
> > > > > > > to know the truth. If you were interested in expanding your
> > > > knowledge,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > would have looked into what I said before you open your mouth
> and
> > > > spewed
> > > > > > > profanity (obviously the only way you know how to communicate).
> Try
> > > > > > > checking with DAN or PADI or try reading any one of the over 100
> > > > > studies,
> > > > > > > articles, and papers he has had published. Or contact the
> Undersea
> > > > > Medical
> > > > > > > Society about the many presentations he has given or
> participated
> > > in,
> > > > or
> > > > > > > contact the Undersea Hyperbaric Medical Society and find out why
> Dr.
> > > > > Powell
> > > > > > > is a high respected member. Or you could contact NEDU (Navy
> > > > > Experimental
> > > > > > > Dive Unit).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For any of the rest of you who may be interested in expanding
> your
> > > > > knowledge
> > > > > > > of DCS with more than just Trey's hot air, feel free to follow
> up on
> > > > any
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the resources I have mentioned.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Marie
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > trey@ne*.co* wrote:
> > > > > > > > Bullshit. My favorite line here is "during which time he
> directed
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > human-subject tests of the DSAT/PADI Recreational Dive
> Planner."
> > > > > > > > This give
> > > > > > > > new meaning to the term "face the wheel".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fact is that the guys who know the most about this are the
> > > > > > > > ones who work
> > > > > > > > with sources who actually are involved in serious diving . If
> > > > > > > > this guy had
> > > > > > > > any contribution to make to this game, we'd know about it.
> What
> > > > > > > > he has is
> > > > > > > > the party line that does not work and is why we see these
> > > > > > > > accidents. Wake up
> > > > > > > > and smell reality.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Navy comment is also just too funny.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
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> > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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> > > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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> > > > http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com
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