Aloha,

Please, no more "control over these cavern areas" for either newer or 
simply OW divers. For most privately owned springs (open to the public), 
there already seems to be quite a bit of control including wavers, signs 
and verbal warnings. And most state-owned springs (the easily accessable, 
popular ones at least) have NSS-CDS/NACD warning signs at the cave 
entrance (both above and below water); more "control" may simply be 
dynamiting the entrance (refer to Hart Spring, etc) to deny entry to all 
divers.

The simple fact you overlook is that every diver is responsible for their 
decisions and actions. Maybe the concept of personal responsibility is 
out-of-date in the twenty-first century. Maybe you believe that 
government or the "powers-that-be" in private facilities should protect 
us from ourselves. I don't. Moreover I believe it is impossible for "the 
authorities" to assume responsibility for purely individual decisions 
regarding assumption of risk without completely denying everyone the 
right to choose.

Regards

Dave

>Hi Jim,I agree there should be more control over these cavern area's for
>newer diver's.I will admit I was at Ginnie once when I was an open water
>weenie.I found the cavern very safe line out gated off and exit visible at
>most times.I don't know about the other's,but this experience really stoked
>my interest in cave diving without having to take an expensive course.Common
>sense should prevail in these location's,but you know what they say about
>common sense.I know when I was there I could have easily entered the cave
>system with a light,there was noone there to say I could'nt.I would have
>thought that there would have been someone there watching all us
>weenies.Scary.Randy in Canada.

>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Jim Holcomb" <jimholcomb@x-*.co*>
>>To: "Techdiver" <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:58 AM
>>Subject: Re: cement pig!
>>
>>
>> Don't know what you are driving at there, Terry.  BUT, your statement, for
>> the most part, is correct.  Open water divers ARE allowed in some caverns
>in
>> North Florida.  Open water STUDENTS are not allowed in overhead by any
>> standards and practices that I'm aware of from any training agency. Now
>this
>> brings up another issue.....why do some facilities allow openwater divers
>> into overhead environments (some with lights)? Ginnie, Devils Den, Blue
>> Grotto, Vortex, ect.........??? Be advised though, that the cave systems
>to
>> the places I just mentioned have been grated off BUT there is still alot
>of
>> rock between the panicked openwater diver who just silted out a cavern and
>> free air.

>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "terry michael" <OEA51@go*.co*>
>> To: "Charles Ayash" <cagraphics@mi*.co*>
>> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 11:59 AM
>> Subject: cement pig!
>>
>>
>> > So, open water training may include a tour of the "cavern zone" in North
>> Florida? Then right after the course it's OK for the instructor to take
>them
>> over to this place Royal springs, issue them a light and then cut them
>> loose?? How far in did they get.
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: "Charles Ayash"<cagraphics@mi*.co*>
>> > To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>
>> > Date: Thu Aug 02 06:56:09 PDT 2001
>> > Subject: Re: cement pig
>> >
>> > >I was at Ginnie last Saturday and there were a group of about 8
>> > >divers in the Devils Spring run.
>> > >
>> > >None had lights and I am guessing that they were just playing in the
>Run
>> > >and the basin of the Ear.
>> > >
>> > >Prior to becoming Cave Certified I would do the same dive and also
>> > >scuba downstream back to Ginnie Spring.
>> > >
>> > >Ginnie Cavern  is also a favorite for OW instructors.
>> > >
>> > >A OW Diver is allowed a light at Ginnie Cavern but if shows up at the
>> Devils
>> > >then Security will turn them back.
>> > >
>> > >I hope this reply is not off base on the subject.
>> > >
>> > >Charlie
>> > >
>> > >At 04:02 AM 8/2/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>> > >>Yes, I think that was the one. So what's the deal are open water
>> students
>> > >getting certified open water doing dives in the overhead at Genie
>springs
>> > >camping grounds? If so is that a contributory factor in these deaths?
>> > >>
>> > >>Or where these people  just committing suicide?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>-----Original Message-----
>> > >>From: "David E. Smith"<dsmith218@ho*.co*>
>> > >>To: "terry michael"<OEA51@go*.co*>
>> > >>Date: Wed Aug 01 19:07:49 PDT 2001
>> > >>Subject: Re: cement pig
>> > >>
>> > >>>The story about the divers (and the pig) sounds like Royal Springs.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>dsmith218@ho*.co*
>> > >>>ICQ# 25409809
>> > >>>
>> > >>>Moderation is for the poor, and the healthy...of which I am
>neither. -
>> > >>>Polver
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>-----Original Message-----
>> > >>>From: terry michael [mailto:OEA51@go*.co*]
>> > >>>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 10:00 AM
>> > >>>To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>> > >>>Subject: cement pig
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>I was reading this article in the NSS journal about a tragic cave
>> fatality
>> > >>>involving two freshly certified OW divers who got killed on their
>very
>> first
>> > >>>"real dive" and then had to be recovered. According to the article
>the
>> > >>>instructor invited them along to retrieve a cement pig, from a spring
>> in
>> > >>>north Florida. They were apparently given one light and then preceded
>> to
>> > >>>swim into the cave and got lost and killed. The instructor that just
>> > >>>certified them over at called Genie Springs was at the site at the
>time
>> but
>> > >>>was busy with another diver who was having trouble equalizing his
>ears.
>> The
>> > >>>other two must have decided to explore the cavern at some point with
>> the
>> > >>>single light between them. So my question is this: do the instructors
>> take
>> > >>>the OW students into the overhead during the open water course at
>Genie
>> > >>>Springs camping resort? If so how does that work? Just curious.
>> > >>>Thanx
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>___________________________________________________
>> > >>>GO.com Mail
>> > >>>Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>--
>> > >>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>> > >>>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>___________________________________________________
>> > >>GO.com Mail
>> > >>Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>--
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>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___________________________________________________
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>
>


    Think for yourself. Pray for democracy. Vote for None of the Above.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Sams
dsams@al*.co*

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