Hey Dave, you got one of those trimix computers yet? Tom sez they are the
best thing since sliced bread...

 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/

> From: trey@ne*.co* (Trey)
> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 06:05:14 -0400
> To: "David Norton" <davidnor@ho*.co*>, "Techdiver"
<techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
> 
> 
> Notice the signature on this moron. You are an idiot, and the archives will
> stand as exhibit A forever. Go back to the IANTD list where stupidity is
> king.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Norton [mailto:davidnor@ho*.co*]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 8:52 PM
> To: Trey; Techdiver
> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but I'm unsubscribing from this news-list.  I am a world-renowed
> expert in diving physiology.  One day you will all grow up.
> 
> 
> David W. Norton
> IANTD Technical Nitrox Instructor
> NITROX Instructor Trainer
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:24 AM
> To: David Norton; Techdiver
> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
> 
> 
> Look, you drooling idiot - we all know that oxygen is used to bring patients
> off - what we do not need to hear form your stupid ass is how that has shit
> to do with what we are saying. We do not use narcotic gasses, we certainly
> do not descend on them and then switch to MORE narcotic gases, we switch to
> less narcotic which includes less oxygen, and the fact is , you moron, that
> if you drop on a narcotic gas it stays with you as you switch to helium and
> a lower oxygen.
> 
> You not only do not have a clue what you are talking about, there is no
> application to this bullshit of yours in diving. I am so sick of idiots with
> running mouths.
> 
> JT and I both said what we said because of our experience doing these
> things.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Norton [mailto:davidnor@ho*.co*]
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:38 PM
> To: Techdiver
> Subject: FW: Trimix Computers
> 
> 
> 
> below -- please see *
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:00 PM
> To: David Norton; Trey; Techdiver
> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
> 
> 
> At 10:32 PM 5/29/01 -0700, David Norton wrote:
>> As far as narcosis goes, you are "reset" instantaneously as you switch the
>> gases.  The gas switch triggers a avalanche effect in the oxygen window and
>> nulls the narcosis mechanism.  After a period, the narcosis does reappear
> if
>> you are at a depth where it should occur.
> 
> Hi David
> I'm not sure I buy that on the start of a dive, because of personal
> experience. I have all but stopped using travel gas for anything other than
> the very deep dives. I will start my dives with a mix down to 12% 02, I
> just do not breath it on the surface. The first time I stopped using travel
> gas I was much more at ease on the bottom from the start and the dives less
> stressful no odd feelings at the start of a dive, no gas switch or hoses to
> re park and less chance of a fuck up. I do not believe the body "resets"
> instantaneously. The minutes you save on deco using a travel gas are lost
> ON the DIVE because you used it. I will do the 10 or so extra minutes on
> deco and have that 2 minutes of a clear,stress free mind on the dive which
> is short enough already and I want the most out of it.
> 
> *The switch is instantaneous.  Medical fact.  It's used almost everyday at a
> hospital here in my town.  It does bring patients out of anesthesia and has
> saved lives by doing so.  I personally have experienced it as I've switched
> to deco gas and published with an anesthesiologist to bring this phenomenon.
> 
> 
> 
>> This is a handy thing and will allow a small period of clear headedness if
>> used properly.  I don't know the travel mix and can't comment on the effect
>> on the diver for more than the short period of the gas switch.  Depending
> on
>> the workload, hypercapia may be a more suitable explanation because of the
>> increase in gas density.
> 
> Hypercapnia, is more likely to happen just after or during a workload and
> the case I speak of was already after some time had past during deco on
> heliox 16 starting at a deep depth and the switch was made at 130ft to
> nitrox 32, I think those are the mixes, lurkers on this list will correct
> me I'm sure. I do not know exactly how long it was after the switch that he
> almost passed out.
> 
> *Hypercapnia is also, caused a bit by hyperventation.  Ever notice how
> people take a few *quick breaths after a gas switch, like the regulator
> won't work.  This could be there, too.
> *I don't know.  But changing oxygen concentration in a gas mix should
> alleviate, not cause *narcosis.
> 
> 
>> The oxygen window "reset" for narcosis (incipient anesthesia) is known dive
>> physiology trait with myself as one of the authors of the article.
> 
> I write no articles, just do the dives and tell you what happens to me.
> 
> JT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:14 PM
>> To: Capt JT; Brian&Kari Hunter
>> Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
>> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> By the way, "travel" gases must be used carefully, and only where they fit:
>> it takes about two minutes for the effect of the last gas to wear off, so
> if
>> you are dropping, you are still "on" that mix well after you do not want to
>> be.
>> 
>> JT is right on the money with this bailout thing.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:36 AM
>> To: Brian&Kari Hunter
>> Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com
>> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Brian
>> Let me explain why it is good NOT not to do this and why oldtimers think it
>> is Ok to do this.
>> 
>> First oldtimers use pony bottles as a bailout system with air mostly, with
>> the introduction of deep dives using trimix they believed that it was OK to
>> use the pony as a travel gas and for bailout. The whole pony bottle rig
>> takes years to master(if you ever really do) and is a sure sign you are
>> behind in the diving scene.
>> 
>> Ken Clayton, who uses the rig in the worst possible way, uses the pony as a
>> travel gas with air to around 200ft and deco or bailout gas. He also says
>> that you must do deep air to do these deep dives, to prepare for narcosis
>> on these deep dives. This is all untrue. I do not do deep air and dive just
>> as deep as he has with an EAD that is not = to deep air.
>> 
>> To dive with an high HE content and switch to a high narcotic mix will
>> knock your dick in the dirt. You will not be able to solve any problem and
>> have just created one.
>> 
>> Example, the first dive to the wreck "Ostfrisland" depth 380ft was done
>> with a heliox mix, there is no nitrogen in that mix, but the plan was to
>> switch to a nitrox mix for deco which has a high nitrogen content. What
>> happen to one of the divers was he nearly pass out from narcosis just after
>> the switch. All the first divers to that wreck were deep air divers and one
>> out of three had a problem of "Not handling it", I don't like those odds.
>> 
>> JT
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> At 05:55 AM 5/29/01 -0400, Trey wrote:
>> 
>>> Brian, first , stay away from anyone this stupid, and put his name on
>> here
>>> for all to see and avoid. Second, where does the air come from? Air is
> not
>> a
>>> natural hazard one comes across in diving. Only an idiot dives air.
>>> 
>>> There is no "handling" being fucked up on air. This is like thinking
> that
>>> if you put a hand over one eye, it is ok to drive drunk.
>>> 
>>> Really, in all seriousness, please give us the name of the piece of
> shit
>>> who told you this. It is hard to believe that anyone is still this stupid
>>> out there.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Brian&Kari Hunter [mailto:sasha@ka*.ne*]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:35 AM
>>> To: Trey
>>> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Trey,
>>> Should a person know how to deal with narcosis so if they have to switch
>>> from he to a more narcotic for emergency reasons they know how to handel
>> it?
>>> The instructor i'm thinking of taking trimix with says this is true after
> I
>>> told him I wanted trimix to stay away from deep air.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*>
>>> To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:14 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Trimix Computers
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Scott ,the legacy of Gilliam and Mount lies in the  holding of deep
> air
>>>> diving records ( Tom was one of the "pioneers" there ) and the rest of
>>> their
>>>> "accomplishments" are not material for this list. Let's say they did
> not
>>>> know any better and  so what. The thing that bothers Cobb and the rest
>> of
>>> us
>>>> is the ongoing inability and unwillingness to move onward and upward
>> with
>>>> the learning curve.
>>>> 
>>>> Using their "position" of "respect" to misdirect is not now a worthy
>>>> endeavor. Failing to learn is not worthy of respect. I could go on,
> but
>> in
>>>> truth some of these guys need a good kick in the balls, and maybe
> their
>>>> hearts and minds will follow.
>>>> 
>>>> I do not need respect or protection: I can argue my case successfully
>> and
>>>> they can not, because they have no case - ever. I am sick of hearing
>> about
>>>> the latest gimmick that Tom thinks is so clever that he just started
>> using
>>>> yesterday but is perfectly willing to recommend it to anyone, and as
> Jim
>>>> Cobb very accurately said, Tom has a long history of this going back
> to
>>>> square lights and so forth.
>>>> 
>>>> If there is anything that I tell anyone that turns out to be bs, then
>>>> somebody come on hear and point it out - won't happen, and if I do
>>> something
>>>> which later proves to be superceded by a better way, I am the first to
>> say
>>>> so.
>>>> 
>>>> The cumulative track record of IANTD and TDI is not something that
>>> commands
>>>> any respect at all, in fact, it should require jail time in my
> opinion,
>>> and
>>>> if you want a cross section of real nonsense, notice the misinformed
>>> baloney
>>>> that comes out of some of these "instructors" when they post to this
>> list.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [mailto:ScottBonis@ao*.co*]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:22 PM
>>>> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Trimix Computers
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Jim,
>>>> 
>>>> You may recall that you and I have butted heads a number of times in
> the
>>>> past, as well as agreeing on various subjects also.  But I see another
>>> head
>>>> butting coming on.
>>>> 
>>>> I have on numerous occasions chastised posters on the net for saying
>>>> derogatory things about Trey.  Not ever for arguing about his opinions
>> or
>>>> advice (which are usually pretty sound), but for showing a lack of
>> respect
>>>> for his accomplishments and dedication to the sport of diving.  There
>>> comes
>>>> a
>>>> point that even if I disagree with what is being said, I must respect
>> the
>>>> speaker if he has earned a certain position in the community.  A
>> freshman
>>>> doesn't challenge a full professor.  He or she may question, but never
>>>> accuse
>>>> or direct.  After the freshman has graduated and contributed to the
>>>> community, then he or she may argue.
>>>> 
>>>> Now I must request that you display a greater respect for several of
> the
>>>> people in the dive community who don't happen to be associated with
> the
>>> WKPP
>>>> or GUE.  Tom Mount, whether or not you agree with his dive techniques,
>> is
>>>> one
>>>> of the clear leaders and outstanding figures in the technical diving
>>>> community.  He at IANTD, along with Ed Betts at ANDI, Bret Gilliam at
>> TDI,
>>>> et. al. for example, are, whether or not you choose to accept it,
> among
>>> the
>>>> true pioneers in technical diving.  These people and others like them,
>> are
>>>> our teachers and have devoted major portions of their lives to
> advancing
>>>> diving techniques and making the sport safer for all of us.
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps you now feel that some of the information being presented by
>> these
>>>> organizations has been superseded by new data that points in a new
>>>> direction.
>>>> This may be so.  But it does not give you the right or even simply
>>>> permission, to forget that these people and organizations have
>> persevered
>>>> and
>>>> should have earned your respect.
>>>> 
>>>> Trey, by virtue of his unique position as a nonprofessional whose
>>>> accomplishments, experience and contributions to the body of technical
>>>> diving
>>>> knowledge have earned him the respect of divers worldwide, happens to
>> have
>>> a
>>>> confrontational communication style.  Because of his position I, and
>> most
>>>> others who wish to learn, overlook this as a personal negative.  It is
>> his
>>>> way and we accept him for what he is and what he has to offer.  And we
>> are
>>>> appreciative for his time and efforts.
>>>> 
>>>> But make no mistake that you have certainly not earned a similar
>> position.
>>>> In my opinion, you have no business whatever telling Tom Mount or the
>>>> others,
>>>> what they SHOULD be doing.  They are the teachers and you are the
>> student.
>>>> They tell you.  You listen quietly, ask for more information, choose
>> what
>>> is
>>>> right for you and make your own decisions.  But you do not pretend to
> be
>>> on
>>>> the level of your teachers and direct them.  That is pure ego.
>>>> 
>>>> Let's not forget that we live in an ordered society where true respect
>> is
>>>> earned over many years of accomplishment and service, not simply by
> who
>>> can
>>>> yell the loudest or type the most curse words into his or her
> computer.
>> I
>>>> consider myself really fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn
>> from
>>>> individuals of this caliber.
>>>> 
>>>> Jim, I think that you ought to consider this carefully and perhaps
>> modify
>>>> your approach when communicating with these folks.  And I need to say
>> here
>>>> that although this message is addressed to you Jim, I am actually also
>>>> speaking to a number of the other posters on this list.
>>>> 
>>>> But then OTOH, this is simply one diver's opinion.
>>>> 
>>>> Take care and dive safe,       Scott
>>>> 
>>>> Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the
> restraints
>>> and
>>>> scramble up out of the pit.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In a message dated 5/23/01 9:12:32 PM, cobber@ci*.co* writes:
>>>> << Tom-
>>>> Maybe not but there are plenty of diveshops out there who would
>>>> love to sell some of these high margin pieces of shit and saying what
>> you
>>>> said below is about as close to a promotion as you can get. Did you
>>> purchase
>>>> yours or was it a promo?
>>>> <snip>
>>>> Tom, as I recall you used to stuff the long hose, use bungee wings,
> use
>>>> steel stages, dive deep air, etc. Don't make this mistake too. >>
>>>> --
>>>> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
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>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
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>> 
>> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
>> water"
>> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
>> Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
>> Email     captjt@mi*.co*
>> 
>> 
>> --
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>> 
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>> 
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> 
> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
> water"
> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
> Web Site  http://www.capt-jt.com/
> Email     captjt@mi*.co*
> 
> 
> --
> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> 
> 
> --
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> 


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