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I don't know if this guy really is an expert or not, but he just reminded me of that scene in Dirty Harry where Clint goes: He's a legend in his own mind. ;-) Cheers. David Norton wrote: ~ >I'm sorry, but I'm unsubscribing from this news-list. I am a world-renowed >expert in diving physiology. One day you will all grow up. > > >David W. Norton >IANTD Technical Nitrox Instructor >NITROX Instructor Trainer > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] >Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:24 AM >To: David Norton; Techdiver >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > >Look, you drooling idiot - we all know that oxygen is used to bring patients >off - what we do not need to hear form your stupid ass is how that has shit >to do with what we are saying. We do not use narcotic gasses, we certainly >do not descend on them and then switch to MORE narcotic gases, we switch to >less narcotic which includes less oxygen, and the fact is , you moron, that >if you drop on a narcotic gas it stays with you as you switch to helium and >a lower oxygen. > >You not only do not have a clue what you are talking about, there is no >application to this bullshit of yours in diving. I am so sick of idiots with >running mouths. > >JT and I both said what we said because of our experience doing these >things. > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Norton [mailto:davidnor@ho*.co*] >Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:38 PM >To: Techdiver >Subject: FW: Trimix Computers > > > >below -- please see * > >-----Original Message----- >From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] >Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:00 PM >To: David Norton; Trey; Techdiver >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers > > >At 10:32 PM 5/29/01 -0700, David Norton wrote: >>As far as narcosis goes, you are "reset" instantaneously as you switch the >>gases. The gas switch triggers a avalanche effect in the oxygen window and >>nulls the narcosis mechanism. After a period, the narcosis does reappear >if >>you are at a depth where it should occur. > >Hi David >I'm not sure I buy that on the start of a dive, because of personal >experience. I have all but stopped using travel gas for anything other than >the very deep dives. I will start my dives with a mix down to 12% 02, I >just do not breath it on the surface. The first time I stopped using travel >gas I was much more at ease on the bottom from the start and the dives less >stressful no odd feelings at the start of a dive, no gas switch or hoses to >re park and less chance of a fuck up. I do not believe the body "resets" >instantaneously. The minutes you save on deco using a travel gas are lost >ON the DIVE because you used it. I will do the 10 or so extra minutes on >deco and have that 2 minutes of a clear,stress free mind on the dive which >is short enough already and I want the most out of it. > >*The switch is instantaneous. Medical fact. It's used almost everyday at a >hospital here in my town. It does bring patients out of anesthesia and has >saved lives by doing so. I personally have experienced it as I've switched >to deco gas and published with an anesthesiologist to bring this phenomenon. > > > >>This is a handy thing and will allow a small period of clear headedness if >>used properly. I don't know the travel mix and can't comment on the effect >>on the diver for more than the short period of the gas switch. Depending >on >>the workload, hypercapia may be a more suitable explanation because of the >>increase in gas density. > >Hypercapnia, is more likely to happen just after or during a workload and >the case I speak of was already after some time had past during deco on >heliox 16 starting at a deep depth and the switch was made at 130ft to >nitrox 32, I think those are the mixes, lurkers on this list will correct >me I'm sure. I do not know exactly how long it was after the switch that he >almost passed out. > >*Hypercapnia is also, caused a bit by hyperventation. Ever notice how >people take a few *quick breaths after a gas switch, like the regulator >won't work. This could be there, too. >*I don't know. But changing oxygen concentration in a gas mix should >alleviate, not cause *narcosis. > > >>The oxygen window "reset" for narcosis (incipient anesthesia) is known dive >>physiology trait with myself as one of the authors of the article. > >I write no articles, just do the dives and tell you what happens to me. > >JT > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Trey [mailto:trey@ne*.co*] >>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:14 PM >>To: Capt JT; Brian&Kari Hunter >>Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com >>Subject: RE: Trimix Computers >> >> >> >>By the way, "travel" gases must be used carefully, and only where they fit: >>it takes about two minutes for the effect of the last gas to wear off, so >if >>you are dropping, you are still "on" that mix well after you do not want to >>be. >> >>JT is right on the money with this bailout thing. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*] >>Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:36 AM >>To: Brian&Kari Hunter >>Cc: Techdiver@Aquanaut.Com >>Subject: RE: Trimix Computers >> >> >>Hi Brian >>Let me explain why it is good NOT not to do this and why oldtimers think it >>is Ok to do this. >> >>First oldtimers use pony bottles as a bailout system with air mostly, with >>the introduction of deep dives using trimix they believed that it was OK to >>use the pony as a travel gas and for bailout. The whole pony bottle rig >>takes years to master(if you ever really do) and is a sure sign you are >>behind in the diving scene. >> >>Ken Clayton, who uses the rig in the worst possible way, uses the pony as a >>travel gas with air to around 200ft and deco or bailout gas. He also says >>that you must do deep air to do these deep dives, to prepare for narcosis >>on these deep dives. This is all untrue. I do not do deep air and dive just >>as deep as he has with an EAD that is not = to deep air. >> >>To dive with an high HE content and switch to a high narcotic mix will >>knock your dick in the dirt. You will not be able to solve any problem and >>have just created one. >> >>Example, the first dive to the wreck "Ostfrisland" depth 380ft was done >>with a heliox mix, there is no nitrogen in that mix, but the plan was to >>switch to a nitrox mix for deco which has a high nitrogen content. What >>happen to one of the divers was he nearly pass out from narcosis just after >>the switch. All the first divers to that wreck were deep air divers and one >>out of three had a problem of "Not handling it", I don't like those odds. >> >>JT >> >> >> >> >> At 05:55 AM 5/29/01 -0400, Trey wrote: >> >> > Brian, first , stay away from anyone this stupid, and put his name on >>here >> >for all to see and avoid. Second, where does the air come from? Air is >not >>a >> >natural hazard one comes across in diving. Only an idiot dives air. >> > >> > There is no "handling" being fucked up on air. This is like thinking >that >> >if you put a hand over one eye, it is ok to drive drunk. >> > >> > Really, in all seriousness, please give us the name of the piece of >shit >> >who told you this. It is hard to believe that anyone is still this stupid >> >out there. >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Brian&Kari Hunter [mailto:sasha@ka*.ne*] >> >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:35 AM >> >To: Trey >> >Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >> > >> > >> >Trey, >> >Should a person know how to deal with narcosis so if they have to switch >> >from he to a more narcotic for emergency reasons they know how to handel >>it? >> >The instructor i'm thinking of taking trimix with says this is true after >I >> >told him I wanted trimix to stay away from deep air. >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*> >> >To: <ScottBonis@ao*.co*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >> >Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:14 AM >> >Subject: RE: Trimix Computers >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Scott ,the legacy of Gilliam and Mount lies in the holding of deep >air >> > > diving records ( Tom was one of the "pioneers" there ) and the rest of >> >their >> > > "accomplishments" are not material for this list. Let's say they did >not >> > > know any better and so what. The thing that bothers Cobb and the rest > >of >> >us >> > > is the ongoing inability and unwillingness to move onward and upward >>with >> > > the learning curve. >> > > >> > > Using their "position" of "respect" to misdirect is not now a worthy >> > > endeavor. Failing to learn is not worthy of respect. I could go on, >but >>in >> > > truth some of these guys need a good kick in the balls, and maybe >their >> > > hearts and minds will follow. >> > > >> > > I do not need respect or protection: I can argue my case successfully >>and >> > > they can not, because they have no case - ever. I am sick of hearing >>about >> > > the latest gimmick that Tom thinks is so clever that he just started >>using >> > > yesterday but is perfectly willing to recommend it to anyone, and as >Jim >> > > Cobb very accurately said, Tom has a long history of this going back >to >> > > square lights and so forth. >> > > >> > > If there is anything that I tell anyone that turns out to be bs, then >> > > somebody come on hear and point it out - won't happen, and if I do >> >something >> > > which later proves to be superceded by a better way, I am the first to >>say >> > > so. >> > > >> > > The cumulative track record of IANTD and TDI is not something that >> >commands >> > > any respect at all, in fact, it should require jail time in my >opinion, >> >and >> > > if you want a cross section of real nonsense, notice the misinformed >> >baloney >> > > that comes out of some of these "instructors" when they post to this >>list. >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: ScottBonis@ao*.co* [mailto:ScottBonis@ao*.co*] >> > > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:22 PM >> > > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com >> > > Subject: Re: Trimix Computers >> > > >> > > >> > > Hi Jim, >> > > >> > > You may recall that you and I have butted heads a number of times in >the >> > > past, as well as agreeing on various subjects also. But I see another >> >head >> > > butting coming on. >> > > >> > > I have on numerous occasions chastised posters on the net for saying >> > > derogatory things about Trey. Not ever for arguing about his opinions >>or >> > > advice (which are usually pretty sound), but for showing a lack of >>respect >> > > for his accomplishments and dedication to the sport of diving. There >> >comes >> > > a >> > > point that even if I disagree with what is being said, I must respect >>the >> > > speaker if he has earned a certain position in the community. A >>freshman >> > > doesn't challenge a full professor. He or she may question, but never >> > > accuse >> > > or direct. After the freshman has graduated and contributed to the >> > > community, then he or she may argue. >> > > >> > > Now I must request that you display a greater respect for several of >the >> > > people in the dive community who don't happen to be associated with >the >> >WKPP >> > > or GUE. Tom Mount, whether or not you agree with his dive techniques, >>is >> > > one >> > > of the clear leaders and outstanding figures in the technical diving >> > > community. He at IANTD, along with Ed Betts at ANDI, Bret Gilliam at >>TDI, >> > > et. al. for example, are, whether or not you choose to accept it, >among >> >the >> > > true pioneers in technical diving. These people and others like them, >>are >> > > our teachers and have devoted major portions of their lives to >advancing >> > > diving techniques and making the sport safer for all of us. >> > > >> > > Perhaps you now feel that some of the information being presented by >>these >> > > organizations has been superseded by new data that points in a new >> > > direction. >> > > This may be so. But it does not give you the right or even simply >> > > permission, to forget that these people and organizations have >>persevered >> > > and >> > > should have earned your respect. >> > > >> > > Trey, by virtue of his unique position as a nonprofessional whose >> > > accomplishments, experience and contributions to the body of technical >> > > diving >> > > knowledge have earned him the respect of divers worldwide, happens to >>have >> >a >> > > confrontational communication style. Because of his position I, and >>most >> > > others who wish to learn, overlook this as a personal negative. It is > >his >> > > way and we accept him for what he is and what he has to offer. And we >>are >> > > appreciative for his time and efforts. >> > > >> > > But make no mistake that you have certainly not earned a similar >>position. >> > > In my opinion, you have no business whatever telling Tom Mount or the >> > > others, >> > > what they SHOULD be doing. They are the teachers and you are the >>student. >> > > They tell you. You listen quietly, ask for more information, choose >>what >> >is >> > > right for you and make your own decisions. But you do not pretend to >be >> >on >> > > the level of your teachers and direct them. That is pure ego. >> > > >> > > Let's not forget that we live in an ordered society where true respect >>is >> > > earned over many years of accomplishment and service, not simply by >who >> >can >> > > yell the loudest or type the most curse words into his or her >computer. >>I >> > > consider myself really fortunate to have had the opportunity to learn >>from >> > > individuals of this caliber. >> > > >> > > Jim, I think that you ought to consider this carefully and perhaps >>modify >> > > your approach when communicating with these folks. And I need to say >>here >> > > that although this message is addressed to you Jim, I am actually also >> > > speaking to a number of the other posters on this list. >> > > >> > > But then OTOH, this is simply one diver's opinion. >> > > >> > > Take care and dive safe, Scott >> > > >> > > Some weeks it's just not worth the effort to gnaw through the >restraints >> >and >> > > scramble up out of the pit. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > In a message dated 5/23/01 9:12:32 PM, cobber@ci*.co* writes: >> > > << Tom- >> > > Maybe not but there are plenty of diveshops out there who would >> > > love to sell some of these high margin pieces of shit and saying what >>you >> > > said below is about as close to a promotion as you can get. Did you >> >purchase >> > > yours or was it a promo? >> > > <snip> >> > > Tom, as I recall you used to stuff the long hose, use bungee wings, >use >> > > steel stages, dive deep air, etc. Don't make this mistake too. >> >> > > -- >> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > > >> > >> >-- >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >>"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the >>water" >>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more >> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >>Email captjt@mi*.co* >> >> >>-- >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >>-- >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >>-- >>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the >water" >Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more > Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >Email captjt@mi*.co* > > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Paul B. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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