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I think it's important to distinguish between deaths directly related to diving, and deaths that happen while diving but otherwise unrelated. A cave collapsing due to an earthquake, or a heart attack due to exertion or other deaths of this kind aren't really related to diving per se. They could occur anytime, doing a wide range of activities. Your house could collapse on you in an earthquake, or you could have a heart attack jogging. It's a minor point, but I think an important one when we analyze accidents in order to learn from them. BTW, I think a clusterfuck is when a series of relatively minor problems combine in such a way as to create a truly dangerous situation. Each problem on it's own would have been solvable, but the combination of problems does you in. Cheers. Wendell Grogan wrote: ~ >Oh sure, I wasn't trying to imply that making just one mistake or having >one failure will do you in. Its more that your need to use redundancy >and pay attention to detail in order to minimize the number of things >that go wrong and like you said, make sure you aren't screwed by any one >thing that does go bad. >If you recall, the term clusterfuck was coined by Clint Eastwood's >character in "Heartbreak Ridge" to describe the way in which the US >military managed to lose a war against a small third world country by >seemingly going out its way to do everything wrong while seeking out and >embracing every source of accidental injury possible. >If you think about it, you can either have a clusterfuck by doing >everything right and having random chance get you- for example, do >everything right in a cave in California and die when a number 8 >earthquake brings the roof down on your head. Or you can have a >clusterfuck by having unlabeled regs, turning on the 15 cu ft pony >instead of your main tank, jump off the boat and drown in 80 feet trying >to figure out why the hell your "back up" reg won't give you any air... >(Delaware Bay last year). >I guess that's the point I was trying to make, thanks for pointing out >what I left out. >Wendell > >Jim Cobb wrote: >> >> I don't think that technical diving has zero tolerance for error. It is >> usually a chain of errors known in the sport as a "clusterfuck" which lead >> to the demise of a diver. >> >> The idea, IMHO, is to make errors survivable by redundant systems, a good >> plan and a large safety margin. Certainly there are events which can lead to >> certain death (a wing falling off your plane, a collapse during a >> penetration), but if diving were risk-free, it would not be any fun would >> it? >> >> Jim >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ >> >> > From: "Joe W" <arizonajeep@ho*.co*> >> > Reply-To: <arizonajeep@ho*.co*> >> > Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 06:49:20 -0700 >> > To: "'Wendell Grogan'" <wgrogan@dc*.ne*>, "'Trey'" <trey@ne*.co*> >> > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >> > Subject: Less than one mistake margin of error; was RE: FW: Steve Berman >> > >> > Wendall, >> > >> > You bring up a great point... in technical diving your margin of error is >> > almost always less than one mistake. >> > I'm a pilot, and in flying, you can be one mistake high, or two mistakes >> > high, or three mistakes high... in technical diving; you often don't have >> > that luxury. Funny, almost every extreme sport turns out to be >>that way... >> > zero tolerance for error, which is perhaps why George is the way >>he is; zero >> > tolerance (although he could stand to brush up on his >>presentation skills a >> > bit <grin>). >> > >> > If my life depended on the skills of the people who I am diving >>with (as it >> > sometimes does with technical diving), I would make sure that I only dive >> > with the best. Divers with bad gear choices, bad conditioning, and bad >> > diving skills are all walking around with a sign on their forehead: >> > >> > "I consume your margin of error" >> > >> > It makes sense to dive with people who share your beliefs on gear, your > > > skills, and your conditioning. The chain is only as strong as >its weakest >> > link. Hell... when MY LIFE depends on someone else; I only want the best >> > around me. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Joe West >> > >> > >> >> >> >> I think another point all this illustrates is that this is a >> >> technically >> >> demanding sport. Or to put it in other terms, every time we >> >> go diving, >> >> we are one mistake/dumb choice away from sudden death. >> >> What burns me about the commentary by a certain person best >> >> left unnamed >> > <snip> >> > >> > -- >> > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> > >> >> -- >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Paul B. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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