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You're just kidding, right?
-----Original Message-----
From: Thom Hadfield <thom.hadfield@ho*.co*>
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; Joe =
<joe@po*.co*>
Date: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: Re. Deco diving
=20
=20
Thanks for the advice. I do have a plan sorry I wasn't more clear in =
the post. I will probably dive on 25% using this secedule
=20
Waypoint at 140ft for 20:00 (22) on Air, PPO2 1.076, END =
140
Deep Stop at 120ft for 0:33 (23) on Air, PPO2 0.952, END =
120
Deep Stop at 110ft for 0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.890, END =
110
Deep Stop at 100ft for 0:33 (24) on Air, PPO2 0.829, END =
100
Deep Stop at 90ft for 0:33 (25) on Air, PPO2 0.767, END 90
Deep Stop at 80ft for 0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.705, END 80
Deep Stop at 70ft for 0:33 (26) on Air, PPO2 0.643, END 70
Deep Stop at 60ft for 0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.581, END 60
Deep Stop at 50ft for 0:33 (27) on Air, PPO2 0.519, END 50
Deep Stop at 40ft for 0:33 (28) on Air, PPO2 0.457, END 40
Norm Stop at 20ft for 6:00 (34) on Air, PPO2 0.334, END 20
Norm Stop at 10ft for 17:00 (51) on Air, PPO2 0.272, END 10
=20
TOTAL DECO TIME: 28 minutes.
DIVE RUN TIME: 51 minutes.
CNS Total: 9.0%
OTU's: 26
=20
I plan on diving either a 120 or double 80's. I am leaning toward a =
120 just for familarity I normally dive with a 120. My dive buddy has a =
lot more expierence than I do but also has no deco expierence. I am =
using laminated navy tables to take with me and I have a computer that =
will calculate deco to 350' I am using zplan to plan out the dive and it =
is the plan I intend to dive if everything goes as planned. However I =
will have tables and a computer for back up. I will carry an ascent reel =
and an extra 80 or 120 (haven't decided which) stage bottle down with me =
and attach it to the wreck near the ascent line. My buddy is planning =
the same. I may also carry it with me these are the things I plan on =
working out in a quarry. Also we are considering hanging another tank =
off the bow of the boat as a third extra air tank.I want to do the dive =
not because of depth but because I want more than 10 mins on this wreck.
I dive safe the last time I dove the wreck I planned for 140'. The =
wreck is in something like 135 feet but I added in a little for error =
and safety incase something happened myself or my buddy hit bottom. =
Anyways my max depth was 128' and my computer told me I had another 9 =
mins left at that depth but I procedded back to the ascent line =
according to my dive plan. For me or my buddy this isn't a personal =
accomplishment it is wanting extra time to view the splendor of this =
wreck. We didn't decide to do a deco dive to prove anything we decided =
we wanted to have more time at that depth and the only way was a deco =
dive and we felt ok doing it on air or 25%. We are planning no =
penetration except a descent and ascent into the main wide open cargo =
hold.
I believe trimix is good and I had not even considered trimx because =
I felt this dive plan was acceptable to do on air or 25%. But when I =
posted a question for tips and suggestions I had a major response that =
this was unsafe on air and I must use trimix or a variation there of. I =
feel comfortable on this wreck and the depth on air. However I didn't =
know what to expect extending my time into decopression ranges.
Sorry for the lengthy discussion but I thought it might better give =
you an idea of my dive plan.=20
=20
Thanks Thom
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Joe=20
To: Thom Hadfield=20
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: Re. Deco diving
=20
=20
Hi Thom:
=20
Do yourself a big favor and just dive. Forget about trimix for =
a while and forget about depth. The way to become a proficient and safe =
diver is to evolve into it. At less than 100 dives thinking about =
trimix is ludicrous. I know the agencies may list 100 dives as a =
prerequisite for trimix, but believe it that you are not ready even at =
200 dives.
=20
Let me explain. You could learn to execute a trimix dive after =
50 dives. As a college student you most probably could learn the =
theories and the math in 20 minutes. Its probably all stuff you already =
know. What you can't learn is the stuff that only time and experience =
will teach you. When you make your screw ups (and you will, just like =
the rest of us) you want them to occur and a depth and in a circumstance =
you can survive. A mishandled incident at 75' is quite survivable. =
That same event at 300' or with a serious decompression ceiling will =
probably kill you. If you review most of the accidents, one of the =
common threads in them is people diving beyond their experience level. =
They take a course, get certified and then kill themselves doing =
something stupid like an uncontrolled ascent.
=20
Helium is no voodoo mystery gas. Diving it is essentially the =
same as air diving. What you need are good in water skills, excellent =
buoyancy control and the ability to handle task loading. What makes it =
challenging to the novice is not the gas. It is the ability to monitor =
your deco schedule, switch to the correct gas at the correct depth while =
making sure your buddy is on the correct gas, deploy a lift bag and =
possibly manage an unexpected emergency like you broke the knob off your =
deco bottle in the closed position or tangled the reel on the lift bag - =
all at the same time and without endangering yourself and others. If =
you jump right into advanced diving, you will surely "pass" the courses =
but in spite of that you won't have the experience level to fall back on =
when the sh** hits the fan. That experience is what will keep you alive =
and you won't have it.=20
=20
The skills you need to successfully execute any advanced dive =
begin with basic diving skills. Refine those skills and build up that =
experience and evolve into the advanced diving. For now, content =
yourself with recreational level diving and work on the skills specific =
to advanced diving (reels, lift bags multiple bottles etc. etc.) and =
when you are ready to take the courses you will really reap the full =
benefit of your instructors knowledge because he won't have to waste =
time teaching you things you should already know.
=20
>>I guess the risks of narcosis which at the depths and times I =
have done I didn't experience=20
>>any is not that great at the dive I am planning. I have heard =
it is a fairly safe plan to that it is >>not a safe plan. Well that's a =
little of my background and thankyou for your reply's
=20
Now to answer your questions.
=20
You won't "feel" the narcosis until it gets to the point of the =
ridiculous. Much like after "one beer" you are impaired but don't know =
it. =20
=20
As far as a plan goes, you have none. (Other than to go to 140' =
which is not a plan.)
=20
Are you diving a single tank or doubles? Have you made =
provisions for air emergencies? What are your air rules? What is your =
run time? Is this a planned decompression dive? If not, do you know =
what to do if you overstay and wind up in decompression? If it is do =
you have contingency tables? Will you have enough gas to decompress? =
Are you using a computer and if so, do you have a table to back it up? =
What about your buddy? Is he at the same level as you? Will he be an =
asset or a liability in the event of a mishap?
=20
If this is one of those personal depth things my advice is to =
can it. If it is a legitimate dive with a purpose other than depth, =
think about the questions I have asked you and formulate a dive plan.
=20
That said, should you have any questions, feel free to ask. If =
I can answer them I will. Also, take note we have had two fatalities =
this week. One a highly experienced "tech" instructor and the other a =
college student open water diver who was curious about a cave. Walk =
before you run.
=20
Best of luck and dive safe.
=20
Joe Citelli=20
=20
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Thom Hadfield=20
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:23 PM
Subject: Re. Deco diving
=20
=20
I am planning on doing the ebber ward which I have been on 3 =
times. The max depth I reached on the ward was 128'. I have been over =
100' probably 8 times wothout getting out my log. I have dove several =
wrecks in the 40 to 100' foot range. I dive a lot in the st. Clair river =
which has low vis and current. I do most of my practice dives there. I =
am currently signed up for Nitrox. I also do not have 100 dives in yet =
which seems to be the basic first step for Trimix. I will have those in =
by the end of this year. All of my expierence is in cold greatlakes =
water. I do not plan any wreck penetration for this dive except for a =
verticle decent and ascent into the wide open cargo hole which I have =
done on a previous dive. The max depth for the ward unless you start to =
dig a hole underneath the wreck is just dhy of 140' so I am planning my =
dive for 140 but I donot plan on spending much time at that depth.=20
I am interested in trimix and I do believe it to be safer =
than air or nitrox at this depth but I have not found a store in my area =
who teaches it. Also it appears online that the training runs about $800 =
which to me as a college student is a bit high. However I know the =
response of what price can you put on a life will come up. I guess the =
risks of narcosis which at the depths and times I have done I didn't =
expierence any is not that great at the dive I am planning. I have heard =
it is a fairly safe plan to that it is not a safe plan. Well thats a =
little of my background and thankyou for your reply's
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You're just kidding, right?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Thom Hadfield <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*">thom.hadfield@home.com</A>><BR>=
<B>To:=20
</B><A =
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>=20
<<A =
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>>;=20
Joe <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:joe@po*.co*">joe@polarbearinc.com</A>><BR><B>D=
ate:=20
</B>Friday, May 11, 2001 11:36 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: Re.
Deco=20
diving<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the advice. I do have a =
plan sorry I=20
wasn't more clear in the post. I will probably dive on 25% using =
this=20
secedule</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Waypoint at 140ft =
for 20:00=20
(22) on Air, PPO2 1.076, =
END=20
140<BR>Deep Stop at 120ft for 0:33 (23) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.952, END =
120<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 110ft for 0:33 (24) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.890, END =
110<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 100ft for 0:33 (24) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.829, END =
100<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 90ft for 0:33 (25) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.767, END =
90<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 80ft for 0:33 (26) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.705, END =
80<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 70ft for 0:33 (26) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.643, END =
70<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 60ft for 0:33 (27) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.581, END =
60<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 50ft for 0:33 (27) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.519, END =
50<BR>Deep=20
Stop at 40ft for 0:33 (28) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.457, END =
40<BR>Norm=20
Stop at 20ft for 6:00 (34) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.334, END =
20<BR>Norm=20
Stop at 10ft for 17:00 (51) on=20
Air, PPO2 0.272, END=20
10</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>TOTAL DECO TIME: 28 =
minutes.<BR>DIVE RUN TIME:=20
51 minutes.<BR>CNS Total: 9.0%<BR>OTU's: 26</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I plan on diving either a 120 =
or double=20
80's. I am leaning toward a 120 just for familarity I normally dive =
with a=20
120. My dive buddy has a lot more expierence than I do but also has =
no deco=20
expierence. I am using laminated navy tables to take with me =
and I=20
have a computer that will calculate deco to 350' I am using zplan to =
plan=20
out the dive and it is the plan I intend to dive if everything goes =
as=20
planned. However I will have tables and a computer for back up. I =
will carry=20
an ascent reel and an extra 80 or 120 (haven't decided which) stage =
bottle=20
down with me and attach it to the wreck near the ascent line. My =
buddy is=20
planning the same. I may also carry it with me these are the things =
I plan=20
on working out in a quarry. Also we are considering hanging another =
tank off=20
the bow of the boat as a third extra air tank.I want to do the dive =
not=20
because of depth but because I want more than 10 mins on this=20
wreck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I dive safe the last time I =
dove the=20
wreck I planned for 140'. The wreck is in something like 135 feet =
but I=20
added in a little for error and safety incase something happened =
myself or=20
my buddy hit bottom. Anyways my max depth was 128' and my computer =
told me I=20
had another 9 mins left at that depth but I procedded back to the =
ascent=20
line according to my dive plan. For me or my buddy this isn't =
a=20
personal accomplishment it is wanting extra time to view the =
splendor of=20
this wreck. We didn't decide to do a deco dive to prove anything we =
decided=20
we wanted to have more time at that depth and the only way was a =
deco dive=20
and we felt ok doing it on air or 25%. We are planning no =
penetration except=20
a descent and ascent into the main wide open cargo =
hold.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe trimix is good and I had =
not even=20
considered trimx because I felt this dive plan was acceptable to do =
on air=20
or 25%. But when I posted a question for tips and suggestions I had =
a major=20
response that this was unsafe on air and I must use trimix or a =
variation=20
there of. I feel comfortable on this wreck and the depth on air. =
However I=20
didn't know what to expect extending my time into decopression=20
ranges.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sorry for the lengthy discussion =
but I thought=20
it might better give you an idea of my dive plan. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks Thom</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:joe@po*.co*" =
title=3Djoe@po*.co*>Joe</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*" =
title=3Dthom.hadfield@ho*.co*>Thom=20
Hadfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 06, =
2001 8:19=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Re. Deco =
diving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi Thom:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Do yourself a big favor and just dive. =
Forget=20
about trimix for a while and forget about depth. The way =
to become=20
a proficient and safe diver is to evolve into it. At less =
than 100=20
dives thinking about trimix is ludicrous. I know the =
agencies may=20
list 100 dives as a prerequisite for trimix, but believe it that =
you are=20
not ready even at 200 dives.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Let me explain. You could learn to =
execute a=20
trimix dive after 50 dives. As a college student you =
most=20
probably could learn the theories and the math in 20 =
minutes. Its=20
probably all stuff you already know. What you can't learn =
is the=20
stuff that only time and experience will teach you. =
When you=20
make your screw ups (and you will, just like the rest of us) you =
want=20
them to occur and a depth and in a circumstance you can=20
survive. A mishandled incident at 75' is quite =
survivable. =20
That same event at 300' or with a serious decompression ceiling =
will=20
probably kill you. If you review most of the accidents, =
one of the=20
common threads in them is people diving beyond their experience=20
level. They take a course, get certified and then =
kill=20
themselves doing something stupid like an uncontrolled=20
ascent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Helium is no voodoo mystery gas. =
Diving it is=20
essentially the same as air diving. What you need are good =
in=20
water skills, excellent buoyancy control and the ability to =
handle task=20
loading. What makes it challenging to the novice is not =
the=20
gas. It is the ability to monitor your deco schedule, =
switch=20
to the correct gas at the correct depth while making sure your =
buddy is=20
on the correct gas, deploy a lift bag and possibly manage an =
unexpected=20
emergency like you broke the knob off your deco bottle in the =
closed=20
position or tangled the reel on the lift bag - all at the =
same time=20
and without endangering yourself and others. If you jump =
right=20
into advanced diving, you will surely "pass" the =
courses but=20
in spite of that you won't have the experience level to fall =
back on=20
when the sh** hits the fan. That experience is what will =
keep you=20
alive and you won't have it. </FONT><FONT
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The skills you need to successfully =
execute any=20
advanced dive begin with basic diving =
skills. Refine=20
those skills and build up that experience and evolve into the =
advanced=20
diving. For now, content yourself with recreational level =
diving=20
and work on the skills specific to advanced diving (reels, lift =
bags=20
multiple bottles etc. etc.) and when you are ready to take the =
courses=20
you will really reap the full benefit of your instructors=20
knowledge because he won't have to waste time teaching=20
you things you should already know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>>>I guess the risks of narcosis which =
at the=20
depths and times I have done I didn't experience </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>>>any is not that great at the dive I =
am=20
planning. I have heard it is a fairly safe plan to that it is=20
>>not a safe plan. Well that's a little of my background =
and=20
thankyou for your reply's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now to answer your
questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>You won't "feel" the narcosis =
until it gets=20
to the point of the ridiculous. Much like after "one=20
beer" </FONT><FONT size=3D2>you are impaired but don't know =
it. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As far as a plan goes, you have none. (Other =
than to=20
go to 140' which is not a plan.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Are you diving a single tank =
or doubles? =20
Have you made provisions for air emergencies? What are =
your air=20
rules? What is your run time? Is this a planned=20
decompression dive? If not, do you know what to do if you =
overstay=20
and wind up in decompression? If it is do you have =
contingency=20
tables? Will you have enough gas to decompress? Are =
you=20
using a computer and if so, do you have a table to back it =
up? =20
What about your buddy? Is he at the same level as =
you? Will=20
he be an asset or a liability in the event of a =
mishap?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If this is one of those personal depth =
things my=20
advice is to can it. If it is a legitimate dive with a =
purpose=20
other than depth, think about the questions I have =
asked you and=20
formulate a dive plan.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>That said, should you have any =
questions, feel=20
free to ask. If I can answer them I will. Also, =
take=20
note we have had two fatalities this week. One a =
highly=20
experienced "tech" instructor and the other a college =
student=20
open water diver who was curious about a cave. Walk before =
you=20
run.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Best of luck and dive safe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Joe Citelli</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:thom.hadfield@ho*.co*"=20
title=3Dthom.hadfield@ho*.co*>Thom Hadfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com"=20
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May
=
10, 2001=20
8:23 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re. Deco =
diving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am planning on doing the =
ebber ward=20
which I have been on 3 times. The max depth I reached on the =
ward=20
was 128'. I have been over 100' probably 8 times wothout =
getting out=20
my log. I have dove several wrecks in the 40 to 100' foot =
range. I=20
dive a lot in the st. Clair river which has low vis and =
current. I=20
do most of my practice dives there. I am currently signed up =
for=20
Nitrox. I also do not have 100 dives in yet which seems to =
be the=20
basic first step for Trimix. I will have those in by the end =
of this=20
year. All of my expierence is in cold greatlakes water. I do =
not=20
plan any wreck penetration for this dive except for a =
verticle=20
decent and ascent into the wide open cargo hole which I have =
done on=20
a previous dive. The max depth for the ward unless you start =
to dig=20
a hole underneath the wreck is just dhy of 140' so I am =
planning my=20
dive for 140 but I donot plan on spending much time at that =
depth.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am interested in trimix =
and I do=20
believe it to be safer than air or nitrox at this depth but =
I have=20
not found a store in my area who teaches it. Also it appears =
online=20
that the training runs about $800 which to me as a college =
student=20
is a bit high. However I know the response of what price can =
you put=20
on a life will come up. I guess the risks of narcosis which =
at the=20
depths and times I have done I didn't expierence any is not =
that=20
great at the dive I am planning. I have heard it is a fairly =
safe=20
plan to that it is not a safe plan. Well thats a little of =
my=20
background and thankyou for your=20
=
reply's</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></B
ODY></HTML>=
------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C0DAEE.EFEF8FA0--
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