I wish we'd bring all this stupid PADI crap to an end. Who gives a fuck.
This is "techdiver" not "snorkel diver" or "sunburned back diver".

Scuba diving is a self-regulating, inbred, incestuous, back-stabbing,
money-grubbing industry. It makes absolutely no difference what is printed
on a c-card except something that will get you your stinking cattle-barge i=
n
cozumel.

You rec.scuba jokers take this crap off the list. All you are doing is
making idiots of yourselves.

  Jim
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
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> From: "Todd Sieber" <todd@un*.co*>
> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:14:03 -0800
> To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>, "Brian&Kari Hunter" <sasha@ka*.ne*>
> Subject: PADI QA - in response
>=20
> Why didn't you call or write to PADI's QA department and issue a complain=
t
> about this instructor - obvious this instructor broke standards (110 ft f=
or
> one) depending on if this is a true story.
>=20
> To make it easier for you and others out there that have first-hand
> experience on standards violations,  PADI's quality assurance email addre=
ss
> is: qa@pa*.co* or you can contact Brad Smith, Manager Training and Quali=
ty
> Management directly at brads@pa*.co*.
>=20
> Unless someone informs the agency that an instructor is doing sub-standar=
d
> work and/or not teaching within the standards of the agency, the agency w=
ill
> not have a clue.  Unfortunately most people who take classes assume the
> instructor is right and its amazing to see how people dive afterwards.  T=
hey
> are carbon-copies of their instructor.
>=20
> Instead of wasting our time and "bitching" about it - I suggest everyone
> that has first hand experience with a sub-standard instructor take the
> effort to make a formal complaint regarding the instructor in question.
>=20
> I'd love to see how many of you out there would really do this.  Its easi=
er
> for you to "bitch" then to get involved.
>=20
> I agree that many instructors from all agencies should not be teaching an=
d
> its a wonder they got certified in the first place and I do agree the
> standards for becoming an instructor are to low but that's how it is.  It=
s
> our responsibility as divers to police ourselves and our fellow divers.
>=20
> One more thing I've noticed - everyone who "has an opinion" doesn't teach=
,
> but they think they know everything - go figure.  If you think you can do
> better, step up to the plate, become an instructor yourself and make a
> difference.  Otherwise, don't bother us.
>=20
> Todd
>=20
> BTW - You might want to check your spelling next time ....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian&Kari Hunter
> To: techdiver
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 7:37 PM
> Subject: Re: WARNING - Coffee Alert
>=20
>=20
> Just my 2 cents worth. I was on a dive in S.C. it was a PADI shop and the=
re
> was a PADI instructor(instroketer)teaching some OW people. This one lady
> very nice was just married to a guy who was a diver they were planning to=
 do
> a late honeymoon in coz. so she thought she would superise him and get
> certified to dive. Well as I later found out she was scared to deth of th=
e
> ocean and the dumb ass instructor told her the only way she would get
> certified was to go on this dive(dive was 110 ft remember OW certificatio=
n
> here). Well on the way out she heard some people talking about seeing som=
e
> sharks and she got REAL nervous then seasick, and couldn't do the dive. W=
hen
> we got back she asked if she could do some more inland diving to get bett=
er
> first and the instructor said "no if you want to do this we will be going
> out tomarrow and that will be the only way(in the ocean where she's
> afraid)you'll get certified.When I heard that I told him I thought he was=
 an
> asshole and that the lady probably wont ever get certified.He didn't like
> that, and I also told him what I thought about the rest of his
> operation(didn't check cards or ask about experience just Put Another Dol=
lar
> In and lets dive).Guess what the last time I was in SO.CO. I heard he was
> going to teach tec diving, can't wait to see that cluster f__k.  PADI wha=
t a
> way to die!!
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*
> To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 2:57 PM
> Subject: RE: WARNING - Coffee Alert
>=20
>=20
> Why are we trying to place blame on one person or the other?  It's both f=
or
> Gods sake.  There are some really great instructors out there, connected
> with different agencies, just like there are bad ones!  I think the agenc=
ies
> are at fault for not policing their instructors and making it harder to g=
et
> an instructor license and keeping it.  They are also at fault for not mak=
ing
> their materials more in-depth and being slow to react to new information.
> They are also at fault for not having tougher standards when teaching
> someone something that can easily get you killed if there is the simplest
> screw up.
>=20
> The instructors are also at fault.  They have the ability of being either
> good teachers or bad ones.  A good teacher knows his/her limitations and
> knows not to cross them.  Just about anyone can probably teach a resort
> course in warm clear water at 40 feet on a reef.  If this is your
> limitation, don't apply for a deep cold certification and take someone in
> that environment and pretend to know what you are talking about.  One of =
my
> biggest problems is that there is no real connection between what the
> instructor knows or that they keep up their skills for that instruction
> level.  How many instructors do you know who can teach you wreck specialt=
y
> when all they do is one or 2 local dives while spending the rest of their
> diving career in the Caribbean looking at fish on a reef or swimming arou=
nd
> a wreck?
>=20
> We've got plenty of instructors up here in the NE that can teach you dry
> suit diving and give you some cockamamie certification for it when all th=
ey
> do is dive in a quarry and make one local boat trip.  The rest of the tim=
e
> they are taking people to warm water.  On the other hand there are other
> instructors that pretty much only dive in their local environment.  You
> typically don't see them giving you some tropical fish identification
> certification...  Good instructors and bad ones.  I think what constitute=
s a
> bad instructor is attitude (not caring if you actually understand somethi=
ng
> or not) as well as not knowing their limitations.
>=20
> It's both, agencies and instructors..  By no means a complete list!
>=20
> This thread is starting to get very old!
>=20
> Art.
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ben Greenhouse [mailto:b.greenhouse@ut*.ca*]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 12:20 PM
> To: haglandg@to*.co*
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: WARNING - Coffee Alert
>=20
> Gary
> I agree with you on most points except your last one.  It is the
> instructor, not the agency.  Neither of the two MSDTs you talk about were
> practising what they preach.  PADI has no need to make understanding basi=
c
> decompression theory an additional criteria for the rating of MSDT.  Thes=
e
> two guys were diving beyond their training.  Unless either of them were
> trained by a tech agency, they were beyond what they had been taught (whi=
ch
> includes following the Recreational Dive Tables).  If they had tech
> training, then it's that agency that's to blame (please don't say they we=
re
> tec-rec).
> I'm not saying that PADI is perfect.  I know a few incredibly
> incompetent instructors myself.  That being said, teaching a person to di=
ve
> to 30 feet in the carribean isn't that hard.  Students are taught that if
> they enter an environment different than the one they were trained in, th=
ey
> should get an orientation dive with a local divemaster or instructor.
> Probably due to attitudes like the ones on this list, people think that i=
t's
> only a money-grab. While I agree that it is a bit of a money grab, there =
is
> also some sense in the madness.  You can't expect every instructor to hav=
e
> dove in every conceivable set of circumstances.  I dive and teach in cold
> water with limited visibility relative to more tropical locales.  However=
, I
> don't have a lot of experience in currents, and so I would never try and
> teach a student how to drift dive.  By recommending that students get
> oriented in new environments, you can ensure that they get taught by peop=
le
> who have experience in that area.  Anyhow, most students will probably ne=
ver
> venture too far from the conditions in which they were trained.  PADI als=
o
> advocates that students take a tuneup if they haven't been diving for a
> while.
> There are many bad things about PADI, not the least of which is (what I
> perceive as) the lax standards for IDC admission.  However, I think that =
a
> good instructor from PADI is as good as an instructor from any other RSTC
> training program.  A bad instructor from PADI is as bad as any other
> instructor.  If someone has hard stats that more PADI divers are getting
> injured than divers from other training agencies, I think PADI would be v=
ery
> interested to hear it, as would I.
> I'm sure I'll get some flames on this, but I would be interested in
> rational discussion.  I think that while there are a lot of bad areas wit=
hin
> PADI, they are no worse than any other agency on the market (GUE does see=
m
> to be changing things though...).
> All that being said, don't get me started on Tec-Rec.
> Ben
> Gary Hagland wrote:
> Adam,Have been watching your posts and understand your feelings about PAD=
I.
> I was certified as an instructor by that agency in 1978 when there was an
> entirely different ethos to their approach to dive training.  We took gre=
at
> pride in creating competent divers.  Those instructors who took short cut=
s,
> rushed classes, and certified marginal students were looked upon as scum.
> Unfortunately, because of their business based system, they are now the
> norm.  More unfortunately, most of those same individuals think they're
> doing a terrific job because they know no better.  They're encapsulated i=
n
> PADI propaganda.  However, most of them one day wake up and discover that
> their efforts outpace the rewards.  The return on investment sucks.
> Economically, it doesn't make sense to be a dive instructor, especially a
> incompetent one.  They quit.  That's a blessing for the dive community, b=
ut
> their system seems to be able to churn out more of the same.  I know some
> good PADI Instructors, but the active ones of my acquaintance have
> diminished to three. Since the beginning of the year here on Okinawa, the=
re
> have been two confirmed cases of DCS among the American military communit=
y.
> Both were PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainers.  One went for a five mile run
> after completing a dive to 190 FSW.  The other spent 30 minutes trying to
> dislodge a porthole from a U.S. ship sunk during the battle here at 146 F=
SW,
> and which should probably be considered a war grave since 60 sailors are
> still aboard, and ran out of air before he could make his first stop at 4=
0
> feet.  After 45 minutes he went back to the wreck.  During his ascent, he
> began to feel pain between his 20 and 10 foot stops.  Perhaps if PADI mad=
e
> understanding basic decompression theory an additional criteria for the
> rating of MSDT, we would have fewer accidents and better training by that
> agency's instructors. The mantra that it's the instructor not the agency =
is
> pass=E9.Gary HaglandOkinawa, Japan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam [mailto:deepwrecks@ya*.co*]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:52 AM
> To: William Anzueto
> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> Subject: Re: WARNING - Coffee Alert
>=20
> When PADI started they where non profit organization. I am not against PA=
DI
> making money. I stand against PADI's bullshit to lower the standards to
> produce instructors and sell impressive but worthless titles. They are
> certifying instructors regardless of their skills and teaching ability to
> gain market share.Because PADI believes more instructors produce more
> divers. More divers mean more money. Do you know instructor candidates wi=
ll
> be marked down if they fail to promote up coming classes. (Basket weaving=
 or
> perhaps Pumpkin Carving Specialty any one) As I said again and again ther=
e
> are great instructors out there. The ultimate insult to all good instruct=
ors
> regardless of agency who worked hard and care about quality, safety of th=
eir
> students is to be put in to the same class as these morons. Because they
> happened to share the same Master Instructor Trainer title. Difference is
> one earned the title and the other bought it. ;-)<?xml:namespace prefix
=3D=
 o
> ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
> Cheers
> Adam
> William Anzueto <willanz@ms*.co*> wrote:
> Adam,
> Interesting that you should post this....
> I wonder what kind of business you are in...do they make money by providi=
ng
> a service or material? That's what makes the world go round. So yes PADI =
is
> in for making money...and now the rest of the agencies are cachting up.
> My training:
> PADI Instructor.
> GUE Cave 1 and doing Cave 2 next month.
> My opinion on PADI....agency just makes the outline....the instructor mak=
es
> a big difference.
> I train my courses since GUE Cave 1 very differently.
> Dive soon,
> William
> "Cave Country , FL"
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices!
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>=20
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>=20

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