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Duane, you are so right. When I want my safety gear, like my spool, or my
hose converter to make any stage into a rebreather supply bottle, or a two
cord, or some double enders, or a clip or an arrow, or my fourth light ,I
want it right now and I do not want a zipper in the way. Even a thread
across a zipper will lock it up. Why even risk this series of obstacles? How
many times does the zipper on a dive bag screw up? Why make things
complicated and unnecessary? Why create risk where there was none ? ( Oh, I
forgot, this is dive gear , never mind .)

The correct way is to put bungee loops in the pocket, and then clip all gear
to the loops. The loops are put through a hole at the leading edge of the
pocket and burn tied. You flip open the pocket and feel for the item, and
pull it out on its loop and unclip it. If the clip jams due to certain types
of clay or minerals in the water ( or other damage ) as is very likely in
certain caves ( like the Florida Panhandle, or inside old shipwrecks ), you
can cut the loop. This is why we do not put d-rings in a pocket.

The other pocket ( on the right side ) is tight and you put small items in
the bottom . I have  cork in a plastic bag for my p valve in case for some
reason it were to break off inside the through-hull fitting  ( I do not use
the screw kind as I do not want a possible problem with that, and I prefer
to balance the inside chamber by referencing it to the suit and I have three
checks ), a mouthpiece and wire ties in case I loose a rebreather mouthpiece
, a wrist seal that I can slide over my existing seal if it rips ( for
scootering ), and my underwater book.

The big problem with dive gear is too many cooks in the kitchen: everyone
wants to come up with some slick idea. There is nothing new under the sun.
Keep it simple, avoid creating problems that come with thinking too hard
about something that needs to be reflex perfect and not convoluted.

If you can not explain it in one line, it will not work underwater.

Velcro opens with a flip. I have a Chinese guy at the laundry who fixes my
zippers. You need him with you if you are putting a zipper between you and
anything you want underwater, and he won't dive with strokes. He has fixed
too many zippers.


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Duane Liptak Jr [mailto:d.liptak.jr@wo*.at*.ne*]
  Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 3:57 PM
  To: techdiver@aquanaut.com; Adam
  Subject: Re: DUI CLX VS TLS


  Adam, the issue with zippers is simple.  Although remote, the possibility
for failure exists, and in several areas.  Zippers can jam.  Teeth can get
deformed, debris can be introduced during the dive.  Zipper pulls can come
off.  Zippers are awkward to open and close around the corners of the
typical square pocket.  Maintaining a zipper can help reduce the risk of
failure, but it cannot absolutely eliminate it.

  It is completely impossible to cause a velcro pocket to fail in a manner
that would preclude you from getting at the safety gear inside.  Whether you
maintain it or not, whether it gets dirty during the dive, whether half the
damn thing gets ripped off or not, you will never be prevented from getting
at your spools, etc.   If the velcro fails in a manner that doesn't keep the
pocket securely closed (which is entirely possible, although highly unlikely
with a minimum of maintenance-if it's not sticking-replace it) It's a moot
point.  All of your safety gear should be clipped off inside the pocket
anyway.  You won't lose anything, and you don't have to accept the risk of
possible zipper failure.  It's kind of like the downstream vs upstream
regulator issue-the velcro pocket fails safe.  The zipper pocket fails in a
way that can complicate any number of already bad situations.

  Just because a drunk driver gets away with driving drunk thousands of
times without incident, does that mean what he's doing is safe?  Just
because your zippers have never failed before, does that mean that they
won't ever fail, and at the worst possible time?  Why accept unnecessary
risk??

  Dive Safe,
  Duane


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Adam <deepwrecks@ya*.co*>
    To: techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
    Date: Friday, March 02, 2001 12:40 PM
    Subject: DUI CLX VS TLS


    >Bullshit. It takes a grain of sand or a piece of shell debris to jam a
zip. You can pick that up and get a jam from it during a dive.

    Billyw, Lets be realistic here a grain of sand or a piece of shell???
DUI has heavy-duty zippers. If you neglect cleaning it for a long time I
must agree you will encounter problems. If you can - think over the years
how many different kinds of equipment had functional zippers on them both
tech or non-tech. BC�s, boots, gloves, suits, both OMS and Dive Right have
utility pockets with zippers. Halcyon has zippers on their BC�s. Point is as
long as you properly maintain your equipment just like everything else
zippers will function properly.

    >IF Velcro deteriorates, it doesn't happen instantly. It gets slack
first. And guess what, Einstein, that's when you replace it.

    You don�t have to be Einstein to agree to that point. The day you
realize your Velcro is slacking is the day you loose peace of equipment.
Years ago Viking had Velcro closures on their pockets. Then they switched to
combination of Velcro, 1 inch webbing and plastic quick connect. Guess why
they did that? Himm!!! May be Velcro was not holding the contents of the
pocket.

    >Are you saying that because you've had no problem with your zip pocket
so far, you never will and no-one else will either?

    Why don�t you read what I wrote! Instead of manipulating what you see.
All I wrote was - I had no problems with the zippers. At no point I said I
would not have problems. Not that it maters I would type it slowly for you
so you can understand easy. My point is - One could eliminate potential
equipment problems if one properly maintains their equipment. This includes
all zippers on the dry suit.

    >What, about medium breasts?

    What about it? I have trouble understanding the relation ship between
medium breasts and pockets unless you keep your medium breasts in your
Velcro pockets. And last point. Please keep your childish empty comments to
your self. I don�t know why you feel you need to insult or flame. Maybe
because you have noting to say, or maybe you have nothing between your ears.
    Cheers!
    Adam





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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D340032111-03032001>Duane,=20
you are so right. When I want my safety gear, like my spool, or my hose=20
converter to make any stage into a rebreather supply bottle, or a two =
cord, or=20
some double enders, or a clip or an arrow, or my fourth light ,I want it =
right=20
now and I do not want a zipper in the way. Even a thread across a zipper =
will=20
lock it up. Why even risk this series of obstacles? How many times =
does the=20
zipper on a dive bag screw up? Why make things complicated and =
unnecessary? Why=20
create risk where there was none ? ( Oh, I forgot, this is dive gear , =
never=20
mind .)</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D340032111-03032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D340032111-03032001>The=20
correct way is to put bungee loops in the pocket, and then clip all gear =
to the=20
loops. The loops are put through a hole at the leading edge of the =
pocket and=20
burn tied. You flip open the pocket and feel for the item, and pull it =
out on=20
its loop and unclip it. If the clip jams due to certain types of clay or =

minerals in the water ( or other damage ) as is very likely in certain =
caves (=20
like the Florida Panhandle, or inside old shipwrecks ), you can cut the =
loop.=20
This is why we do not put d-rings in a pocket.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D340032111-03032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D340032111-03032001>The=20
other pocket ( on the right side ) is tight and you put small items in =
the=20
bottom . I have  cork in a plastic bag for my p valve in case for =
some=20
reason it were to break off inside the through-hull fitting  ( I do =
not use=20
the screw kind as I do not want a possible problem with that, and I =
prefer to=20
balance the inside chamber by referencing it to the suit and I have =
three checks=20
), a mouthpiece and wire ties in case I loose a rebreather mouthpiece , =
a wrist=20
seal that I can slide over my existing seal if it rips ( for scootering =
), and=20
my underwater book.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D340032111-03032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D340032111-03032001>The=20
big problem with dive gear is too many cooks in the kitchen: everyone =
wants to=20
come up with some slick idea. There is nothing new under the sun.  =
Keep it=20
simple, avoid creating problems that come with thinking too hard about =
something=20
that needs to be reflex perfect and not convoluted.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D340032111-03032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D340032111-03032001>If you=20
can not explain it in one line, it will not work =
underwater.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D340032111-03032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN =
class=3D340032111-03032001>Velcro=20
opens with a flip. I have a Chinese guy at the laundry who fixes my =
zippers. You=20
need him with you if you are putting a zipper between you and anything =
you want=20
underwater, and he won't dive with strokes. He has fixed too many=20
zippers.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D340032111-03032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D4><SPAN=20
class=3D340032111-03032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Duane Liptak
Jr=20
  [mailto:d.liptak.jr@wo*.at*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March =
02, 2001=20
  3:57 PM<BR><B>To:</B> techdiver@aquanaut.com;
Adam<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re: DUI=20
  CLX VS TLS<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV>Adam, the issue with zippers is simple.  Although remote, =
the=20
  possibility for failure exists, and in several areas.  Zippers =
can=20
  jam.  Teeth can get deformed, debris can be introduced during the =

  dive.  Zipper pulls can come off.  Zippers are awkward to =
open and=20
  close around the corners of the typical square pocket.  =
Maintaining a=20
  zipper can help reduce the risk of failure, but it cannot absolutely =
eliminate=20
  it.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>It is completely impossible to cause a velcro pocket to fail in a =
manner=20
  that would preclude you from getting at the safety gear inside.  =
Whether=20
  you maintain it or not, whether it gets dirty during the dive, whether =
half=20
  the damn thing gets ripped off or not, you will never be prevented =
from=20
  getting at your spools, etc.   If the velcro fails in a =
manner that=20
  doesn't keep the pocket securely closed (which is entirely possible, =
although=20
  highly unlikely with a minimum of maintenance-if it's not =
sticking-replace it)=20
  It's a moot point.  All of your safety gear should be clipped off =
inside=20
  the pocket anyway.  You won't lose anything, and you don't have =
to accept=20
  the risk of possible zipper failure.  It's kind of like the =
downstream vs=20
  upstream regulator issue-the velcro pocket fails safe.  The =
zipper pocket=20
  fails in a way that can complicate any number of already bad =
situations. =20
  </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Just because a drunk driver gets away with driving drunk =
thousands of=20
  times without incident, does that mean what he's doing is safe?  =
Just=20
  because your zippers have never failed before, does that mean that =
they won't=20
  ever fail, and at the worst possible time?  Why accept =
unnecessary=20
  risk??  </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Dive Safe,</DIV>
  <DIV>Duane</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B></B></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B></B></FONT> </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Adam <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:deepwrecks@ya*.co*">deepwrecks@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B>T
=
o:=20
    </B>techdiver <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
    </B>Friday, March 02, 2001 12:40 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>DUI CLX
VS=20
    TLS<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>>Bullshit. It takes a grain of sand
or a =
piece of=20
    shell debris to jam a zip. You can pick that up and get a jam from =
it during=20
    a dive. <BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Billyw, Lets be =
realistic here a=20
    grain of sand or a piece of shell??? DUI has heavy-duty zippers. If =
you=20
    neglect cleaning it for a long time I must agree you will encounter=20
    problems. If you can - think over the years how many different kinds =
of=20
    equipment had functional zippers on them both tech or non-tech. =
BC’s, boots,=20
    gloves, suits, both OMS and Dive Right have utility pockets with =
zippers.=20
    Halcyon has zippers on their BC’s. Point is as long as you =
properly maintain=20
    your equipment just like everything else zippers will function =
properly.=20
    <BR><BR></FONT>>IF Velcro deteriorates, it doesn't happen =
instantly. It=20
    gets slack first. And guess what, Einstein, that's when you replace =
it.=20
    <BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">You don’t have to be =
Einstein to agree to=20
    that point. The day you realize your Velcro is slacking is the day =
you loose=20
    peace of equipment. Years ago Viking had Velcro closures on their =
pockets.=20
    Then they switched to combination of Velcro, 1 inch webbing and =
plastic=20
    quick connect. Guess why they did that? Himm!!! May be Velcro was =
not=20
    holding the contents of the pocket. <BR><BR></FONT>>Are you =
saying that=20
    because you've had no problem with your zip pocket so far, you never =
will=20
    and no-one else will either? <BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS">Why don’t=20
    you read what I wrote! Instead of manipulating what you see. All I =
wrote was=20
    - I had no problems with the zippers. At no point I said I would not =
have=20
    problems. Not that it maters I would type it slowly for you so you =
can=20
    understand easy. My point is - One could eliminate potential =
equipment=20
    problems if one properly maintains their equipment. This includes =
all=20
    zippers on the dry suit. <BR><BR></FONT>>What, about medium =
breasts?=20
    <BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">What about it? I have
trouble=20
    understanding the relation ship between medium breasts and pockets =
unless=20
    you keep your medium breasts in your Velcro pockets. And last point. =
Please=20
    keep your childish empty comments to your self. I don’t know =
why you feel=20
    you need to insult or flame. Maybe because you have noting to say, =
or maybe=20
    you have nothing between your ears. <BR>Cheers! <BR>Adam
<BR></FONT>
    <P><BR>
    <HR SIZE=3D1>
    <B>Do You Yahoo!?</B><BR><A=20
    href=3D"http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=3Dmailiyfoot">Yahoo! =
Mail=20
    Personal Address</A> - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo!=20
  Mail.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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