Paul, all tanks are top heavy. That is what you want. The heavy part is over
your buoyant lungs and the light part is over your heavy legs .  The best
trim is horizontal.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Braunbehrens" <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
To: "George Irvine" <kirvine@sa*.ne*>; "Marv" <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>
Cc: <allysonclagett@ea*.ne*>; "'Kevin Connell'" <kevin@co*.ne*>;
"'Chris Elmore'" <elmorec@at*.ne*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: DIHUL, was: Fins question


> What about the argument that some tanks are top heavy making it
> harder to achieve proper trim in the ocean?
>
>
> George Irvine wrote:
> ~
> >I keep saying it -  weight yourself so that with little or no gas you can
> >hover at ten feet, and with full gas you can swim up with no inflation by
> >dropping something.
> >
> >That covers it.
> >
> >For tank choice in ocean, big heavy tanks are dangerous boat diving, so
are
> >not my first choice. I'd rather add a stage and dive it dry , leaving my
> >back gas intact.
> >
> >Cave diving is different in that you need more gas to go farther and the
> >decompression is in a safe environment,not open sea with all its
vagaries.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Marv" <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>
> >To: "George Irvine" <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> >Cc: <allysonclagett@ea*.ne*>; "'Kevin Connell'"
<kevin@co*.ne*>;
> >"'Paul Braunbehrens'" <Bakalite@ba*.co*>; "'Chris Elmore'"
> ><elmorec@at*.ne*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 8:28 PM
> >Subject: Re: DIHUL, was: Fins question
> >
> >
> >>  Geroge,
> >>
> >>  I am more or less the instigator of this mess , and I would like to
just
> >>  bring a couple of things more into focus.
> >>
> >>  If you had limited funds< like Paul does> which tank would you buy,
the
> >>  al80s or the 104s, if you were only diving ocean?
> >>
> >>  Why exactly is the 80 the "tank of choice" for the ocean? Is there
some
> >>  reason besides buoyancy and  cost?
> >>
> >>  What is more important on a deco dive inthe ocean, ability to
ultimately
> >>  surface by ditching weight to become positive or  remaining beneath
the
> >>  deco ceiling by other means< buddy support divers bring gas, etc>
> >>
> >>  I am thinking that your primary concern in the ocean  is drowning,
> >>  followed by inert gas concerns. Which is more or less important to the
> >>  dir diver in the ocean?
> >>
> >>  Did i misquote you or miss some context in your original article<where
i
> >>  quoted from your gear config piece re al 80s in the ocean, which is in
> >>  the morass below.> ?
> >>
> >>  Thanks,
> >>
> >>  Marv
> >>
> >>  George Irvine wrote:
> >>
> >>  > Think of it this way , Allyson: whatever you are wearing, you should
be
> >able
> >>  > to stay at ten feet with almost no gas, and you should be able to
swim
> >up
> >>  > from depth with no inflation of any kind ( by dropping something ).
If
> >you
> >>  > can do that, you are DIR. If not, you are a moron ( not you,
Allyson ).
> >>  >
> >>  > ----- Original Message -----
> >>  > From: "Allyson" <allysonclagett@ea*.ne*>
> >>  > To: "'Kevin Connell'" <kevin@co*.ne*>; "'Marv'"
> ><ajmarve@ba*.ne*>;
> >>  > "'Paul Braunbehrens'" <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> >>  > Cc: "'Chris Elmore'" <elmorec@at*.ne*>;
<techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> >>  > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:00 PM
> >>  > Subject: RE: DIHUL, was: Fins question
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >> Hi Marv,
> >>  >>
> >>  >> You're right, George Irvine's "Doing It Right Gear Configuration"
> >article
> >>  >> says that for ocean diving "aluminum 80's are the tank of choice."
> >>  >
> >>  > However
> >>  >
> >>  >> the article also says "in ocean or lake diving, steel tanks should
> >never
> >>  >
> >>  > be
> >>  >
> >>  >> used without a drysuit."
> >>  >>
> >>  >> So what I surmise from the article is, if you are diving in the
ocean
> >in a
> >>  >> wetsuit, definitely use aluminum 80's--with a wetsuit, never use
steel
> >>  >> tanks.  If you are diving a drysuit in the ocean, using steel tanks
is
> >>  >> acceptable (as you will need less weight elsewhere on your person.)
> >>  >>
> >>  >> ~Allyson
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >> -----Original Message-----
> >>  >> From: Kevin Connell [mailto:kevin@co*.ne*]
> >>  >> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 12:08 AM
> >>  >> To: Marv; Paul Braunbehrens
> >>  >> Cc: Chris Elmore; techdiver@aquanaut.com; GUE Mailing List
> >>  >> Subject: Re: DIHUL, was: Fins question
> >>  >>
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Marv, is it DIR because you read something george wrote (out of
> >>  >> context)  and you happen to use the same equipment?
> >>  >>
> >>  >> Can you come out here and retrain everyone, maybe offer some
lectures
> >on
> >>  >> DIR?   We seem to be stroking out big time with steel tanks.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> armchair  diving at its finest.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> At 11:37 PM 2/20/2001 -0500, Marv wrote:
> >>  >>
> >>  >>> THis is not just a Paul thing but since he brougth it up, its the
> >ideal
> >>  >>> place for it.
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> If you are diving in the ocean , what is the ideal tank?
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> not what tank can you make work or what tank is kind of ok, but
what
> >tank
> >>  >>> is DIR??
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> its the   ALUMINUM 80
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> These tanks are one third the cost of steel whatevers and one
fifth
> >the
> >>  >>> weight.
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> They are the ultimate tank in terms of buoyancy, when
> >manifolded&doubled
> >>  >>> up with a steel plate for drysuit diving you will not realize you
are
> >>  >>> wearing tanks, they have more than enuff gas for most reasonable
> >dives,
> >>  >>> and they are by definition the dir tank of choice for the ocean.
They
> >are
> >>  >>> easy to dive with a tls 350, c4 14 size light and a weight belt or
if
> >you
> >>  >>> must a v weight.
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> check out Georges article on wkpp.org if you doubt what i am
telling
> >you.
> >>  >>> Its right there in black and white.or read below.
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> Marv
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> From "Equipment Configuration", G. Irvine, wkpp.org
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> "  For ocean, aluminum 80's are the tank of choice. If more gas is
> >>  >>
> >>  > needed,
> >>  >
> >>  >>> take an aluminum stage, but don't risk your life being over
weighted
> >at
> >>  >>> the beginning of the dive. The buoyancy characteristics of
aluminum,
> >>  >>> especially when using helium , are such that a weight belt and or
> >>  >>> canister light will provide the necessary ballast which can be
dropped
> >>  >>> in an emergency, making the rig only reasonably negative when
full,
> >>  >>> neutral when empty, but swimable by dropping the weight. "
> >>  >>>                  ----George Irvine
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>> Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>>> I already replaced a bunch of stuff, this is not the beginning of
> >>  >>>> switching to a DIR setup.  The DIR tanks cost $900 and weigh a
ton. I
> >>  >>>> can't stomach it in my pocketbook or knees right now.  Someone
else
> >said
> >>  >>>> my tanks will work for now.
> >>  >>>> Kevin Connell wrote:
> >>  >>>> ~
> >>  >>>>
> >>  >>>>> So what's the problem paul, you only need to replace your tanks
and
> >>  >>>>
> >>  > your
> >>  >
> >>  >>>>> fins.  you did way better than I did, I had to replace
everything.
> >>  >>>>> Dry gloves are OK as long as the wrist seal is intact.
> >>  >>>>> Drysuit is fine.  it's compressed.  Actually a nice suit if you
ask
> >me.
> >>  >>>>> You won't need the weights with proper tanks.
> >>  >>>>>
> >>  >>>>> At 11:23 AM 2/20/2001 -0800, Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
> >>  >>>>>
> >>  >>>>>> Chris, I've had the twin jets since before I was exposed to
DIR.  I
> >>  >>>>>> also have a neoprene drysuit, a set of HP doubles, and an
atomic
> >>  >>>>>> regulator.  Sorry, I just don't have $2k sitting around right
now
> >to
> >>  >>>>>> change all my gear.  I'm trying to figure out what I can use in
the
> >>  >>>>>> tech 1 class, and what I need to change.  In the real world you
> >need
> >>  >>>>>
> >>  > to
> >>  >
> >>  >>>>>> make some compromises.  It's either do the class with most of
the
> >gear
> >>  >>>>>> I have now, or wait until I have the money to switch all my
gear
> >>  >>>>>> around, and that could be a while.  So I"m trying to figure out
> >what
> >>  >>>>>> will "work", and what I absolutely have to replace now.  I just
> >priced
> >>  >>>>>> the jet fins, they are a minor expense, I'll be getting them
> >shortly.
> >>  >>>>>> Thanks for your offer to let me borrow your stuff, BTW, but
I've
> >long
> >>  >>>>>> since learned that you need to train using your own gear, if
the
> >>  >>>>>> training is to be worth anything.
> >>  >>>>>> Just for kicks, here is a list of what I'm using, as you can
see
> >I've
> >>  >>>>>> already blown a lot of money...
> >>  >>>>>> PST HP 100 doubles with isolator manifold
> >>  >>>>>> G250/M20 on a necklace, and Atomic on a 7 ft hose.
> >>  >>>>>> brass spg.
> >>  >>>>>> 10 W HID
> >>  >>>>>> Halcyon integrated weights
> >>  >>>>>> OMS SS backplate
> >>  >>>>>> Harness (webbing from EE, the other stuff I had laying around)
> >>  >>>>>> 2 EE backup lights
> >>  >>>>>> Diving Concepts compressed neoprene drysuit
> >>  >>>>>> Halcyon 65 lb wing (I have some bondage wings sitting in my
garage
> >in
> >>  >>>>>> case anyone wants them)
> >>  >>>>>> Twin jet fins with spring straps (soon to be Jet fins)
> >>  >>>>>> Halcyon lift bag
> >>  >>>>>> Halcyon Sausage
> >>  >>>>>> Dry gloves with ring system (this was a poor choice, but I'm
stuck
> >>  >>>>>
> >>  > with
> >>  >
> >>  >>>>>> it for now).
> >>  >>>>>> So here is the question really.  I just don't have the bucks to
> >change
> >>  >>>>>> the drysuit and the tanks right now, and I'm sure those two are
the
> >>  >>>>>> worst offenders.  Should I postpone the class until I've
changed
> >>  >>>>>
> >>  > those,
> >>  >
> >>  >>>>>> or should I take the class now?
> >>  >>>>>> Please advise.
> >>  >>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>> Chris Elmore wrote:
> >>  >>>>>> ~
> >>  >>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>> Paul,
> >>  >>>>>>>      George was right, "What are we going to do with you?"
I've
> >been
> >>  >>>>>>> diving
> >>  >>>>>>> since '68 and a pressure gauge is the only thing that made it
past
> >>  >>>>>>
> >>  > the
> >>  >
> >>  >> DIR
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>> purge. To clarify: DIR stands for Doing It Right. It doesn't
mean
> >>  >>>>>>
> >>  > Doing
> >>  >
> >>  >> It
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>> Half-assed Until Later. You keep asking questions, getting
good
> >>  >>>>>>> answers then
> >>  >>>>>>> buying crap anyway. Sign up for a GUE course and I'll let you
> >borrow
> >>  >>>>>>> all my
> >>  >>>>>>> stuff for the week. Geez, put the coffee on.
> >>  >>>>>>> C.
> >>  >>>>>>> Chris Elmore
> >>  >>>>>>> PalmettoSoft Technologies Corp.
> >>  >>>>>>> (803) 233-2001 (work)
> >>  >>>>>>> (803) 348-3055 (mobile)
> >>  >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>  >>>>>>> From: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> >>  >>>>>>> To: <thomas@ha*.ne*>; Steve Schultz
> >>  >>>>>>> <se2schul@bl*.ma*.uw*.ca*>;
> >>  >>>>>>> Stefan Bolka <sbolka@er*.co*>
> >>  >>>>>>> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; GUE Mailing List
<quest@gu*.co*>
> >>  >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:59 AM
> >>  >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Fins question
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  Because I've been diving for a couple of decades, and happen
to
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  > have
> >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  some equipment that I purchased before I was exposed to DIR.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  DUH!
> >>  >>>>>>>>  Thomas Tukker wrote:
> >>  >>>>>>>>  ~
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >Hmmm, never seen any of those in Wakulla...
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >Guess you're in for another purchase.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >Why not buy what you see all DIR divers wear in the first
> >place,
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> that
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>> might
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >be a money saving strategy if you have a limited budget to
work
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> with
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>> Paul.
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >TT
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  -----Original Message-----
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  From: Paul Braunbehrens [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*]
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 2:07 AM
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  To: Steve Schultz; Stefan Bolka
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; GUE Mailing List
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  Subject: Re: Fins question
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  Steve, that's not my experience.  I was also wondering
if
> >the
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> twin
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  jets are DIR, 'cause when I got a dry suit and had to
get
> >>  >>>>>>>> larger fins
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  I did get the twin jets.  As far as how well they work,
they
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> work
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  very well.  No cramps, and you will move faster.  They
don't
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> "feel"
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  like you're doing much work, i.e. there isn't much
> >resistance
> >>  >>>>>>>> to work
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  against, but if you compare against known variables
you'll
> >see
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> that
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  your speed under water has improved.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  I sure hope they're ok, 'cause I'm already going to blow
a
> >lot
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> of
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>  > >>  money on other stuff including the tech1 class, and
don't
> >>  >>>>>>
> >>  > want
> >>  >
> >>  >> to
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  have to buy fins as well.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  Cheers.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  Steve Schultz wrote:
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  ~
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >Stefan,
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >Data can be manipulated statistically to serve whoever
is
> >>  >>>>>>>> publishing
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>> the
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >info.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >When you read info about fin efficiency, see who is
> >  > >>>>>>>
> >>  > publishing
> >>  >
> >>  >> the
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>> data,
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >and ask yourself if they have something to gain.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >More importantly, try it yourself in the water.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >I tried the bio-fin a couple years ago when appollo
> >sponsored
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> an
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >expedition.  I found the fins sucked.  I mean really
> >>  >>>>>>>> sucked.  I dive
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>> Jets
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >and only Jets now. Give me 10 pairs of bio-fins for
free,
> >and
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> I'll
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>> still
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >be diving my Jets.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >Whoever said bio-fins are more efficient probably
didn't
> >have
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> calf
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >muscles, or they sell them.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >BTW, the best DIR equipment list so far is on the WKPP
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  > website.
> >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>> George
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >posted his configuration.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >ss
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Stefan Bolka wrote:
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Ok this is probably gonna get me hurt but...
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Has anyone thought about the natures wing, i.e.
scubapro
> >>  >>>>>>>> twin jet
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>fins or Apollo bio fin for DIR.  I ask because I
recognize
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> that
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>many of us (like me) do not have scooters and the test
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  > numbers
> >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>showing better efficiency sound encouraging.  Do these
> >work
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> for
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>frog kicks?  Could they be used for tech. and not cave
or
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> cavern?
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>  I am asking because I am trying to start making a
"DIR
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >> approved
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>equipment list".  yes I have too much time on my hands
and
> >>  >>>>>>>> figured
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>it makes sense to try and help new divers get into DIR
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>methodologies so I am working on a FAQ.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>  If anyone has start a FAQ and not finished let me
know,
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  > I'll
> >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  help finish it.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Thanks for the help,
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>  Stefan.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>
> >>
 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>  >>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  >For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  --
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  Paul B.
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>
>
>>>>>>>  -------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >-
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>  For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  --
> >>  >>>>>>>>  Paul B.
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>
>
>>>>   --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>  >>>>>
> >>  >> -
> >>  >>
> >>  >>>>>>>>  To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
> >>  >>>>>>>>  For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
> >>  >>>>>>>
> >>  >>>>>> -- Paul B.
> >>
>
>>>>>>  --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >>  >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co*
> >>  >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co*
> >>  >>>>>
> >>  >> --
> >>  >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
> >>  >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
> >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
> >>  >>
> >>  >> --
> >>  >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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> >>  >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
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> >>  >>
> >>
> >>  --
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> >>
> >
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>
> --
> Paul B.
>

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