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My problem is that if I put myself in a horizontal position in the water my legs start floating up. George Irvine wrote: ~ >Paul, all tanks are top heavy. That is what you want. The heavy part is over >your buoyant lungs and the light part is over your heavy legs . The best >trim is horizontal. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Paul Braunbehrens" <Bakalite@ba*.co*> >To: "George Irvine" <kirvine@sa*.ne*>; "Marv" <ajmarve@ba*.ne*> >Cc: <allysonclagett@ea*.ne*>; "'Kevin Connell'" <kevin@co*.ne*>; >"'Chris Elmore'" <elmorec@at*.ne*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:47 AM >Subject: Re: DIHUL, was: Fins question > > >> What about the argument that some tanks are top heavy making it >> harder to achieve proper trim in the ocean? >> >> >> George Irvine wrote: >> ~ >> >I keep saying it - weight yourself so that with little or no gas you can >> >hover at ten feet, and with full gas you can swim up with no inflation by >> >dropping something. >> > >> >That covers it. >> > >> >For tank choice in ocean, big heavy tanks are dangerous boat diving, so >are >> >not my first choice. I'd rather add a stage and dive it dry , leaving my >> >back gas intact. >> > >> >Cave diving is different in that you need more gas to go farther and the >> >decompression is in a safe environment,not open sea with all its >vagaries. >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Marv" <ajmarve@ba*.ne*> >> >To: "George Irvine" <kirvine@sa*.ne*> >> >Cc: <allysonclagett@ea*.ne*>; "'Kevin Connell'" ><kevin@co*.ne*>; >> >"'Paul Braunbehrens'" <Bakalite@ba*.co*>; "'Chris Elmore'" >> ><elmorec@at*.ne*>; <techdiver@aquanaut.com> >> >Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 8:28 PM >> >Subject: Re: DIHUL, was: Fins question >> > >> > >> >> Geroge, >> >> >> >> I am more or less the instigator of this mess , and I would like to >just >> >> bring a couple of things more into focus. >> >> >> >> If you had limited funds< like Paul does> which tank would you buy, >the >> >> al80s or the 104s, if you were only diving ocean? >> >> >> >> Why exactly is the 80 the "tank of choice" for the ocean? Is there >some >> >> reason besides buoyancy and cost? >> >> >> >> What is more important on a deco dive inthe ocean, ability to >ultimately >> >> surface by ditching weight to become positive or remaining beneath >the >> >> deco ceiling by other means< buddy support divers bring gas, etc> >> >> >> >> I am thinking that your primary concern in the ocean is drowning, >> >> followed by inert gas concerns. Which is more or less important to the >> >> dir diver in the ocean? >> >> >> >> Did i misquote you or miss some context in your original article<where >i >> >> quoted from your gear config piece re al 80s in the ocean, which is in >> >> the morass below.> ? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Marv >> >> >> >> George Irvine wrote: >> >> >> >> > Think of it this way , Allyson: whatever you are wearing, you should >be >> >able >> >> > to stay at ten feet with almost no gas, and you should be able to >swim >> >up >> >> > from depth with no inflation of any kind ( by dropping something ). >If >> >you >> >> > can do that, you are DIR. If not, you are a moron ( not you, >Allyson ). >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Allyson" <allysonclagett@ea*.ne*> >> >> > To: "'Kevin Connell'" <kevin@co*.ne*>; "'Marv'" >> ><ajmarve@ba*.ne*>; >> >> > "'Paul Braunbehrens'" <Bakalite@ba*.co*> >> >> > Cc: "'Chris Elmore'" <elmorec@at*.ne*>; ><techdiver@aquanaut.com> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:00 PM >> >> > Subject: RE: DIHUL, was: Fins question >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Hi Marv, >> >> >> >> >> >> You're right, George Irvine's "Doing It Right Gear Configuration" >> >article >> >> >> says that for ocean diving "aluminum 80's are the tank of choice." >> >> > >> >> > However >> >> > >> >> >> the article also says "in ocean or lake diving, steel tanks should >> >never > > >> > >> >> > be >> >> > >> >> >> used without a drysuit." >> >> >> >> >> >> So what I surmise from the article is, if you are diving in the >ocean >> >in a >> >> >> wetsuit, definitely use aluminum 80's--with a wetsuit, never use >steel >> >> >> tanks. If you are diving a drysuit in the ocean, using steel tanks >is >> >> >> acceptable (as you will need less weight elsewhere on your person.) >> >> >> >> >> >> ~Allyson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Kevin Connell [mailto:kevin@co*.ne*] >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 12:08 AM >> >> >> To: Marv; Paul Braunbehrens >> >> >> Cc: Chris Elmore; techdiver@aquanaut.com; GUE Mailing List >> >> >> Subject: Re: DIHUL, was: Fins question >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Marv, is it DIR because you read something george wrote (out of >> >> >> context) and you happen to use the same equipment? >> >> >> >> >> >> Can you come out here and retrain everyone, maybe offer some >lectures >> >on >> >> >> DIR? We seem to be stroking out big time with steel tanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> armchair diving at its finest. >> >> >> >> >> >> At 11:37 PM 2/20/2001 -0500, Marv wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> THis is not just a Paul thing but since he brougth it up, its the >> >ideal >> >> >>> place for it. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> If you are diving in the ocean , what is the ideal tank? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> not what tank can you make work or what tank is kind of ok, but >what >> >tank >> >> >>> is DIR?? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> its the ALUMINUM 80 >> >> >>> >> >> >>> These tanks are one third the cost of steel whatevers and one >fifth >> >the >> >> >>> weight. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> They are the ultimate tank in terms of buoyancy, when >> >manifolded&doubled >> >> >>> up with a steel plate for drysuit diving you will not realize you >are >> >> >>> wearing tanks, they have more than enuff gas for most reasonable >> >dives, >> >> >>> and they are by definition the dir tank of choice for the ocean. >They >> >are >> >> >>> easy to dive with a tls 350, c4 14 size light and a weight belt or >if >> >you >> >> >>> must a v weight. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> check out Georges article on wkpp.org if you doubt what i am >telling >> >you. >> >> >>> Its right there in black and white.or read below. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Marv >> >> >>> >> >> >>> From "Equipment Configuration", G. Irvine, wkpp.org >> >> >>> >> >> >>> " For ocean, aluminum 80's are the tank of choice. If more gas is >> >> >> >> >> > needed, >> >> > >> >> >>> take an aluminum stage, but don't risk your life being over >weighted >> >at >> >> >>> the beginning of the dive. The buoyancy characteristics of >aluminum, >> >> >>> especially when using helium , are such that a weight belt and or >> >> >>> canister light will provide the necessary ballast which can be >dropped >> >> >>> in an emergency, making the rig only reasonably negative when >full, >> >> >>> neutral when empty, but swimable by dropping the weight. " >> >> >>> ----George Irvine >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Paul Braunbehrens wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> I already replaced a bunch of stuff, this is not the beginning of >> >> >>>> switching to a DIR setup. The DIR tanks cost $900 and weigh a >ton. I >> >> >>>> can't stomach it in my pocketbook or knees right now. Someone >else >> >said >> >> >>>> my tanks will work for now. >> >> >>>> Kevin Connell wrote: >> >> >>>> ~ >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>> So what's the problem paul, you only need to replace your tanks >and >> >> >>>> >> >> > your >> >> > >> >> >>>>> fins. you did way better than I did, I had to replace >everything. >> >> >>>>> Dry gloves are OK as long as the wrist seal is intact. >> >> >>>>> Drysuit is fine. it's compressed. Actually a nice suit if you >ask >> >me. >> >> >>>>> You won't need the weights with proper tanks. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> At 11:23 AM 2/20/2001 -0800, Paul Braunbehrens wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Chris, I've had the twin jets since before I was exposed to >DIR. I >> >> >>>>>> also have a neoprene drysuit, a set of HP doubles, and an >atomic >> >> >>>>>> regulator. Sorry, I just don't have $2k sitting around right >now >> >to >> >> >>>>>> change all my gear. I'm trying to figure out what I can use in >the >> >> >>>>>> tech 1 class, and what I need to change. In the real world you >> >need >> >> >>>>> >> >> > to >> >> > >> >> >>>>>> make some compromises. It's either do the class with most of >the >> >gear >> >> >>>>>> I have now, or wait until I have the money to switch all my >gear >> >> >>>>>> around, and that could be a while. So I"m trying to figure out >> >what >> >> >>>>>> will "work", and what I absolutely have to replace now. I just >> >priced >> >> >>>>>> the jet fins, they are a minor expense, I'll be getting them >> >shortly. >> >> >>>>>> Thanks for your offer to let me borrow your stuff, BTW, but >I've >> >long >> >> >>>>>> since learned that you need to train using your own gear, if >the >> >> >>>>>> training is to be worth anything. >> >> >>>>>> Just for kicks, here is a list of what I'm using, as you can >see >> >I've >> >> >>>>>> already blown a lot of money... >> >> >>>>>> PST HP 100 doubles with isolator manifold >> >> >>>>>> G250/M20 on a necklace, and Atomic on a 7 ft hose. >> >> >>>>>> brass spg. >> >> >>>>>> 10 W HID >> >> >>>>>> Halcyon integrated weights >> >> >>>>>> OMS SS backplate >> >> >>>>>> Harness (webbing from EE, the other stuff I had laying around) >> >> >>>>>> 2 EE backup lights >> >> >>>>>> Diving Concepts compressed neoprene drysuit >> >> >>>>>> Halcyon 65 lb wing (I have some bondage wings sitting in my >garage >> >in >> >> >>>>>> case anyone wants them) >> >> >>>>>> Twin jet fins with spring straps (soon to be Jet fins) >> >> >>>>>> Halcyon lift bag >> >> >>>>>> Halcyon Sausage >> >> >>>>>> Dry gloves with ring system (this was a poor choice, but I'm >stuck >> >> >>>>> >> >> > with >> >> > >> >> >>>>>> it for now). >> >> >>>>>> So here is the question really. I just don't have the bucks to >> >change >> >> >>>>>> the drysuit and the tanks right now, and I'm sure those two are >the >> >> >>>>>> worst offenders. Should I postpone the class until I've >changed >> >> >>>>> >> >> > those, >> >> > >> >> >>>>>> or should I take the class now? >> >> >>>>>> Please advise. >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> Chris Elmore wrote: >> >> >>>>>> ~ >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> Paul, >> >> >>>>>>> George was right, "What are we going to do with you?" >I've >> >been >> >> >>>>>>> diving >> >> >>>>>>> since '68 and a pressure gauge is the only thing that made it >past >> >> >>>>>> >> >> > the >> >> > >> >> >> DIR >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> purge. To clarify: DIR stands for Doing It Right. It doesn't >mean >> >> >>>>>> >> >> > Doing >> >> > >> >> >> It >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> Half-assed Until Later. You keep asking questions, getting >good >> >> >>>>>>> answers then >> >> >>>>>>> buying crap anyway. Sign up for a GUE course and I'll let you >> >borrow >> >> >>>>>>> all my >> >> >>>>>>> stuff for the week. Geez, put the coffee on. >> >> >>>>>>> C. >> >> >>>>>>> Chris Elmore >> >> >>>>>>> PalmettoSoft Technologies Corp. >> >> >>>>>>> (803) 233-2001 (work) >> >> >>>>>>> (803) 348-3055 (mobile) >> >> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>>>>>> From: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*> >> >> >>>>>>> To: <thomas@ha*.ne*>; Steve Schultz >> >> >>>>>>> <se2schul@bl*.ma*.uw*.ca*>; >> >> >>>>>>> Stefan Bolka <sbolka@er*.co*> >> >> >>>>>>> Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; GUE Mailing List <quest@gu*.co*> >> >> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 11:59 AM >> >> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Fins question >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> Because I've been diving for a couple of decades, and happen >to >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> > have >> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> some equipment that I purchased before I was exposed to DIR. >> >> >>>>>>>> DUH! >> >> >>>>>>>> Thomas Tukker wrote: >> >> >>>>>>>> ~ >> >> >>>>>>>> >Hmmm, never seen any of those in Wakulla... >> >> >>>>>>>> >Guess you're in for another purchase. >> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >Why not buy what you see all DIR divers wear in the first >> >place, >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> might >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >be a money saving strategy if you have a limited budget to >work >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> Paul. >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >TT >> >> >>>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>>>>>>> >> From: Paul Braunbehrens [mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*] >> >> >>>>>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 2:07 AM >> >> >>>>>>>> >> To: Steve Schultz; Stefan Bolka >> >> >>>>>>>> >> Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com; GUE Mailing List >> >> >>>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: Fins question >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> Steve, that's not my experience. I was also wondering >if >> >the >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> twin >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> jets are DIR, 'cause when I got a dry suit and had to >get >> >> >>>>>>>> larger fins >> >> >>>>>>>> >> I did get the twin jets. As far as how well they work, >they >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> work >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> very well. No cramps, and you will move faster. They >don't >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> "feel" >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> like you're doing much work, i.e. there isn't much >> >resistance >> >> >>>>>>>> to work >> >> >>>>>>>> >> against, but if you compare against known variables >you'll >> >see >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> your speed under water has improved. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> I sure hope they're ok, 'cause I'm already going to blow >a >> >lot >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> > >> money on other stuff including the tech1 class, and >don't >> >> >>>>>> >> >> > want >> >> > >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> have to buy fins as well. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> Cheers. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> Steve Schultz wrote: >> >> >>>>>>>> >> ~ >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >Stefan, >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >Data can be manipulated statistically to serve whoever >is >> >> >>>>>>>> publishing >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> the >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >info. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >When you read info about fin efficiency, see who is >> > > >>>>>>> >> >> > publishing >> >> > >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> data, >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >and ask yourself if they have something to gain. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >More importantly, try it yourself in the water. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >I tried the bio-fin a couple years ago when appollo >> >sponsored >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> an >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >expedition. I found the fins sucked. I mean really >> >> >>>>>>>> sucked. I dive >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> Jets >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >and only Jets now. Give me 10 pairs of bio-fins for >free, >> >and >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> I'll >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>> still >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >be diving my Jets. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >Whoever said bio-fins are more efficient probably >didn't >> >have >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> calf >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >muscles, or they sell them. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >BTW, the best DIR equipment list so far is on the WKPP >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> > website. >> >> > >> >> >>>>>>> George >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >posted his configuration. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >ss >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Stefan Bolka wrote: >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> Ok this is probably gonna get me hurt but... >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> Has anyone thought about the natures wing, i.e. >scubapro >> >> >>>>>>>> twin jet >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>fins or Apollo bio fin for DIR. I ask because I >recognize >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>many of us (like me) do not have scooters and the test >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> > numbers >> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>showing better efficiency sound encouraging. Do these >> >work >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> for >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>frog kicks? Could they be used for tech. and not cave >or >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> cavern? >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> I am asking because I am trying to start making a >"DIR >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> approved >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>equipment list". yes I have too much time on my hands >and >> >> >>>>>>>> figured >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>it makes sense to try and help new divers get into DIR >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>methodologies so I am working on a FAQ. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> If anyone has start a FAQ and not finished let me >know, >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> > I'll >> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> help finish it. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> Thanks for the help, >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> Stefan. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> -- >> >> >>>>>>>> >> Paul B. >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >- >> >- >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >> >> >>>>>>>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >> >>>>>>>> Paul B. >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >> >> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> -- Paul B. >> >> >> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >- >> >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: quest-unsubscribe@gu*.co* >> >> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: quest-help@gu*.co* >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >> >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >> >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >`techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >> >> > >> >-- >> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >> >> -- >> Paul B. >> > >-- >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Paul B. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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