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In South Africa we have all the odds stacked against us when it comes to Helium. Weak currency, high transportation costs and most cave sites are deep (50m+). My dives cost between USD100 and 150 for gas. If I cant afford the gas bill, I dont dive and I certainly dont try to come up with convoluted arguments to justify deep air. Cheers, Simon ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Hagland <haglandg@to*.co*> To: Scott <scottk@hc*.co*> Cc: Tim O'Leary <Nauitec@ao*.co*>; Douglas Bennett <bennett@ii*.ne*.jp*>; Techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 3:29 PM Subject: RE: clarification was: An the beat goes on and on > Scott, > Have absolutely no doubt that He is safer than air. If circumstances were > different, many of us would gladly dive Trimix below 130 FSW. As it is, we > set what we think are reasonable limits based on what we feel are our > capabilities. Some of us have been diving longer than George, although we > haven't done 19k at 300 FSW. We have opinions based on our experiences and > usually that is what we trust rather than news group invective. As Matthias > says, if it doesn't feel right, we abort. > > From someone who lives outside the U.S., the problems with He are that its > expensive and the U.S. controls the world's supply. Why did the Germans use > hydrogen in the Hindenburg? Why are the French experimenting with hydrogen > for use in breathing mixes? Although we Americans think of ourselves as the > most wonderful people on the planet, some folks don't want to rely on us. > One storage bottle of He outside the U.S. is $200 or more. That's what it > costs here in Japan and that's what I've been told it costs in France and > other European countries. How many AL80 fills can you get out of one > storage bottle based on an END of 80 FSW? You can do the math based on the > availability of a Haskell or without it. Then apply the financial > considerations. And I'm sorry if you don't think that should be a part of > the equation, but it is. Suggest that you and anyone else who is genuinely > concerned could do a lot more to further the cause of safe diving if you > could convince the suppliers in Texas and, for those of us outside the U.S., > the folks who transship the gas to overseas ports, to lower their prices. > Gary > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott [mailto:scottk@hc*.co*] > Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:13 AM > To: techdiver@aquanaut.com; Trey > Subject: Re: clarification was: An the beat goes on and on > > > The next thing we have to work on is a way to get the agencies to embrace > hyperoxic trimix, and get it into the hands of advanced level recreational > divers. I have been turning people on to HOTx for 6 months, but there are > several problems: > > Most people are charging .65 to .75 a foot for He, which is ludicrous, since > the cost is a round .13 a foot. The typical reasons are "because I have to > buy a compressor" blah, blah, blah. As a parallel, one of my buds has an > office supply biz. He has two copiers that cost more than any compressor, > and he gets a nickel a copy off one, and .25 a copy from the other. Others > sell double fills of trimix for 80 to 120 dollars. We can double the money > on our gas at $16 for singles, and around $28 to $32 for most dubs. This rip > off has to be brought to light as well. > > NO ONE should have to take $9,000 worth of TDI or IANTD training to be able > to use the gas, which, in reality, is *safer* than air for diving. > Without a trimix shingle, or a guy like me who will do a fill for people I > know, they are unable to use the gas anywhere else, unless they blend it in > their garage, which many are doing. > > I took a gent out yesterday to dive on the gas, and he was amazed at how > much better he felt afterwards. Normally, his hands really hurt after diving > air (slightly arthritic), but HOTx didn't have that effect. > > I brought this up to the "instructor base" over on rec.scuba, and they > howled like a bunch of mashed cats. NAUI and IANTD totally missed the ball > on this one with their "Normoxic trimix course", which is just another way > to separate you from your money. > > Before anyone starts screaming, lets just remember the noise made when > Nitrox was suggested for recreational divers. Mountains of dead divers were > predicted... > > Scott > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Trey <trey@ne*.co*> > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>; Mike Strong <divermike@fn*.ne*> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 1:09 PM > Subject: Re: clarification was: An the beat goes on and on > > > > If all of us insist that these guys do things properly , then they will > find > > a way to do that. > > > > The problem is that when idiots like Gilliam get into the mix, we all > > suffer. I can't imagine traveling 12,000 miles to dive in a great spot and > > doing it on air. > > > > We have the same problem in New Jersey, where the Seeker idiots proudly > dive > > air and bullshit gear, like "poney" bottles of air with air in doubles > > just to be sure there is no mistake about how dumb they are) with > > slobwinders to turn the ponies on. They serve a clientele of strokes. > > > > The harder we make it for the idiots to be idiots, the better it will be > for > > all of us. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mike Strong <divermike@fn*.ne*> > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > Cc: <trey@ne*.co*> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 3:37 PM > > Subject: clarification was: An the beat goes on and on > > > > > > > List: > > > > > > There has been some confusion about my views, and what I did or did not > > say > > > regarding a Truk Lagoon Trip. Most of these messages were in the > private > > > forum, but I want to say all this in the open. > > > > > > I DO NOT support any form of deep air diving, diving below 130' without > > > Helium, or any diving operation involved with Brett Gilliam, TDI, or any > > of > > > his buddies. The shop I work for is taking a trip to Truk, on the boat > > > Odyssey. This vessel, at the encouraging of Bret Gilliam, allows *and* > > > supports Deep air diving to depths of 200, because Gilliam says in the > > > ocean you are safe to that depth. I DO NOT agree. It is very clear > that > > > this guy is a moron, and the charter company is falling victim to his > > > stupidity. > > > > > > As for the trip, I have suggested to several members of the trip that > the > > > answer is to limit the diving on the trip to depths of 130 or shallower, > > or > > > not go at all. (Helium, which is available, is *very* expensive, so my > > > thinking is that it makes more sense to not do the deep dives, rather > than > > > to pay for the He) As for the other suggestions on the list regarding > > > "diving to 140 or 150, mabey the 200 foot dive...," in Truk, I also DO > NOT > > > agree with this. This is the exact thing we all are trying to get away > > > from, It is not safe, nor is it "OK," to do these dives without the use > of > > > Helium. > > > > > > I am a firm supporter of the DIR idea and those who have put in the time > > > and effort to make it work--If you want to do it DIR in Truk, you have 3 > > > choices: Pay for the gas, stay above 130, or refer to Rule #1. Most, I > > > would think would refer to Rule #1........ > > > > > > Finally, I would like to point out that it is up to us as divers to get > > the > > > point across to these charters....deep air is not safe. I hope this > post > > > has cleared up this mess, and that everyone knows where I stand now. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Mike Strong > > > > > > > -- > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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