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" They died with their weight belts on" probably make a good western. Seriously, your way when you have that myocardial infarct on the surface, i have nothing to drop when i swim out to you, if you have a wing problem or out of gas, you are not enhancing your possibility for a positive outcome. The DAN guys did it wrong, and paid the ultimate price for that mistake. is the equipment to blame or the execution?? Plenty of guys have toxed after making mistakes analyzing their gas, but im not going to say dont use hyperoxic gas, im going to say use it correctly Alternatively your way-if you unconscious on the bottom, can you buddy get you up?? is someone else who finds you going to be able to figure out that you have no weights to ditch before you brain is irreversibly damaged< too late for me youd think im sure>? Im not adverse to taking the risk of diving, im just trying to place the best bet i can. rgds, Al Marvelli Jim Cobb wrote: > Al, I think you are getting too much information from James Bond films. What > is the matter with a swimming controlled ascent? My single tank rig uses no > weight belt for warm waters. I have a 14lb backplate for AL singles and a > 5lb backplate for steel singles. This is all I need. > > Should I have to head to the surface I point my head in that direction and > kick my feet. And yes, I have been trying to steer this conversation back to > the technical arena but without much luck. Our basic disagreement seems to > be that I think you should be neutrally buoyant in the water without a > weightbelt and that you think you should neutrally buoyant with one. I > really don't care what rec divers use, I simply don't like weight belts and > can live without one. > > I also cannot resist pointing out that just about all of the DAN fatalities > died with their weightbelts on. For some reason panicking divers don't want > to drop them. Figure that one out. > > Jim > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > > > From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*> > > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:38:17 -0400 > > To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> > > Cc: Tech Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > Subject: Re: Making sure this dead horse is thoroughly beaten (wasRe: > > Computers WAS Re: Oxygen Toxicity - using 100% in open water) > > > > Stop waffling jim. > > > > Explain why you told a single tank diver doing no deco profiles to use non > > ditchable > > weight. > > > > Nevermind that I have made the distinction between tech and rec in several of > > my > > replies, just explain the logic behind your sage advice there my friend. > > > > When the single tank guy has a first stage failure, does he just "drop down" > > to deal > > with it? Or are you going to suggest that everyone use doubles regardless of > > depth > > and planned profile? < the phrases " less is best" and "take only what you > > need" > > keep ringing in my ears> > > > > and exactly who are these techdivers who cant master the weightbelt? is it > > really > > such a difficult piece of equipment to use? is there too much taskloading to > > use a > > belt for ndl diving? for single tank open water diving? 60 ft or less diving? > > give > > me a freaking break. > > > > I am getting the feeling you technophilliacs are not understanding the > > distinction > > between deco and non deco diving. > > > > For the record I personally use a weight belt with singles and the wet suit, > > and > > with al doubles in either suit, but i really only need the belt when the tanks > > are > > below 1000psi, and i try not to put them there. Otherwise i am dry in double > > psts, > > and dont need extra weight. > > > > btw JIm, if you watch the james bond film Goldeneye, youll see a european helo > > with > > an ejection seat, that works at zero altitude. They are not a new invention. > > > > later, > > > > Al Marvelli > > > > PS if you want, ill send you my phone# and we can chat this out. > > > > > > Jim Cobb wrote: > > > >> OK Al, lets talk about reasons to dump your weightbelt and bolting to the > >> surface. When you techdive this is a mindset that you have to get rid of. > >> You are abandoning your safety-net of bolting to the surface as an option. > >> You have to equip yourself to deal with the problem at the bottom. To do > >> this you equip yourself with redundant, high quality, well maintained > >> equipment and use an effective buddy team. > >> > >> This does not scare me. What does scare me is having a 30min 20ft stop > >> obligation and having to hold on to an anchorline for dear life because your > >> stupid weight belt fell off. I maintain that you are figuring on, perhaps > >> counting on that bolt for the surface as your last ditch grasp at life. This > >> is a bad option as you can die from bends and embolisms. And no, you don't > >> need a PFO to embolise. > >> > >> Let's look at airplanes vs. helicopters. Airplanes can be equipped with an > >> ejector seat. Helicopters can't due to that rather large whirling blade > >> directly over the cockpit. Why do pilots fly helicopters then? Because they > >> have alternative plans when the shit hits the fan, but ejecting is not one > >> of them. Same with techdiving. Dropping a weightbelt will not save your > >> life. Perhaps make your body recoverable but that's about it. > >> > >> Jim > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > >> > >>> From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*> > >>> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:23:33 -0400 > >>> To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> > >>> Cc: Tech Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > >>> Subject: Re: Making sure this dead horse is thoroughly beaten (wasRe: > >>> Computers WAS Re: Oxygen Toxicity - using 100% in open water) > >>> > >>> Jim, > >>> > >>> rec,tech or smeck, if you are completely out of gas you GO UP. Up is where > >>> you > >>> can > >>> breathe, and when you are out of gas you will want to be there as fast as > >>> possible. > >>> cmon this cant be so hard to understand. > >>> > >>> If you need to you can either get more gas< and a watchful eye> and go back > >>> down or > >>> you get on the boat and wait for redemption or the USCG Dalphine/helo. > >>> > >>> NOw the issue of weighting vs overweighting is a seperate one, if you are > >>> doing it > >>> right or correctly or compton style or whatever the hell its called this > >>> week, > >>> you > >>> are not overweighted, you are balanced. I understand balanced as weighted so > >>> that at > >>> the end of the dive you have enuff the weight to compensate for the lost > >>> gas, > >>> but > >>> not so much that you require extra floation to hold a stop, or just be > >>> neutral. If > >>> you are at or near neutral at the surface, then at depth losing the belt is > >>> no > >>> great > >>> problem. If you are paying attention to the belt, its a non issue. if you > >>> can > >>> not > >>> dive a weiht belt, you dont need to be using doubles or bolting weight to > >>> yourelf, > >>> you need to lean how to use that belt, preferrably in shallow water. > >>> > >>> I see this as the fundametal difference between us, i prefer skills to > >>> equipment for > >>> problem solving. You are free to hold a diffenet opinion, butyou have not > >>> convinced > >>> me to change mine yet. > >>> > >>> If you need to you shold be able to get rid of this weight; again please > >>> explain to > >>> me what one is supposed to do if they cannot and they are out of gas or do > >>> not > >>> have > >>> the necessary redundancy. Cannister lights are great, but again if we are > >>> discussing > >>> the open water diver we are most likely not discussing a cannister lite, and > >>> you > >>> were giving advice to people who were going to mount p weights to backplates > >>> in > >>> addition to hard mounting their lights to their plates on single tanks; not > >>> very > >>> smart on their part imho. > >>> > >>> And arent the people who embolize from just going up the ones with pfo's? > >>> the > >>> ones > >>> who shouldnt be diving to begin with?besides we are not talking about this > >>> as > >>> a > >>> standard practice but rather as an emergency procedure. If you this more > >>> than > >>> twice > >>> when its not practice, you need more instruction or more practice. > >>> > >>> > >>> btw the w/e diving wasnt bad, scootered the San Diego on sat, lizzie D and > >>> mistletoe > >>> on sun, 2 ft seas both days.Not exactly the bmf, but it will do for now. > >>> > >>> rgds, > >>> > >>> Al Marvelli > >>> > >>> Jim Cobb wrote: > >>> > >>>> Al, I can't imagine any scenario either rec or tech were dropping a weight > >>>> belt and rocketing to the surface does a diver any good. If you get > >>>> yourself > >>>> neutral where you can do a controlled swimming ascent to the surface you > >>>> are > >>>> better off. You don't need to be in deco to die of an embolism. Many people > >>>> dive way over-weighted because it is so easy to add a bunch of weight to a > >>>> weight belt. > >>>> > >>>> Not using a weight belt forces a diver to get his buoyancy right for a > >>>> particular type of diving. In my case I always take my canister light, this > >>>> suffices for me. In a tech scenario you need the extra weight with AL > >>>> doubles and a wetsuit due to their buoyancy characteristics. Even in this > >>>> situation you use just enough weight to be neutral, not a ton so you rocket > >>>> to the surface at the slightest difficulty. > >>>> > >>>> Jim > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > >> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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