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Stop waffling jim. Explain why you told a single tank diver doing no deco profiles to use non ditchable weight. Nevermind that I have made the distinction between tech and rec in several of my replies, just explain the logic behind your sage advice there my friend. When the single tank guy has a first stage failure, does he just "drop down" to deal with it? Or are you going to suggest that everyone use doubles regardless of depth and planned profile? < the phrases " less is best" and "take only what you need" keep ringing in my ears> and exactly who are these techdivers who cant master the weightbelt? is it really such a difficult piece of equipment to use? is there too much taskloading to use a belt for ndl diving? for single tank open water diving? 60 ft or less diving? give me a freaking break. I am getting the feeling you technophilliacs are not understanding the distinction between deco and non deco diving. For the record I personally use a weight belt with singles and the wet suit, and with al doubles in either suit, but i really only need the belt when the tanks are below 1000psi, and i try not to put them there. Otherwise i am dry in double psts, and dont need extra weight. btw JIm, if you watch the james bond film Goldeneye, youll see a european helo with an ejection seat, that works at zero altitude. They are not a new invention. later, Al Marvelli PS if you want, ill send you my phone# and we can chat this out. Jim Cobb wrote: > OK Al, lets talk about reasons to dump your weightbelt and bolting to the > surface. When you techdive this is a mindset that you have to get rid of. > You are abandoning your safety-net of bolting to the surface as an option. > You have to equip yourself to deal with the problem at the bottom. To do > this you equip yourself with redundant, high quality, well maintained > equipment and use an effective buddy team. > > This does not scare me. What does scare me is having a 30min 20ft stop > obligation and having to hold on to an anchorline for dear life because your > stupid weight belt fell off. I maintain that you are figuring on, perhaps > counting on that bolt for the surface as your last ditch grasp at life. This > is a bad option as you can die from bends and embolisms. And no, you don't > need a PFO to embolise. > > Let's look at airplanes vs. helicopters. Airplanes can be equipped with an > ejector seat. Helicopters can't due to that rather large whirling blade > directly over the cockpit. Why do pilots fly helicopters then? Because they > have alternative plans when the shit hits the fan, but ejecting is not one > of them. Same with techdiving. Dropping a weightbelt will not save your > life. Perhaps make your body recoverable but that's about it. > > Jim > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > > > From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*> > > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:23:33 -0400 > > To: Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> > > Cc: Tech Diver <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > Subject: Re: Making sure this dead horse is thoroughly beaten (wasRe: > > Computers WAS Re: Oxygen Toxicity - using 100% in open water) > > > > Jim, > > > > rec,tech or smeck, if you are completely out of gas you GO UP. Up is where you > > can > > breathe, and when you are out of gas you will want to be there as fast as > > possible. > > cmon this cant be so hard to understand. > > > > If you need to you can either get more gas< and a watchful eye> and go back > > down or > > you get on the boat and wait for redemption or the USCG Dalphine/helo. > > > > NOw the issue of weighting vs overweighting is a seperate one, if you are > > doing it > > right or correctly or compton style or whatever the hell its called this week, > > you > > are not overweighted, you are balanced. I understand balanced as weighted so > > that at > > the end of the dive you have enuff the weight to compensate for the lost gas, > > but > > not so much that you require extra floation to hold a stop, or just be > > neutral. If > > you are at or near neutral at the surface, then at depth losing the belt is no > > great > > problem. If you are paying attention to the belt, its a non issue. if you can > > not > > dive a weiht belt, you dont need to be using doubles or bolting weight to > > yourelf, > > you need to lean how to use that belt, preferrably in shallow water. > > > > I see this as the fundametal difference between us, i prefer skills to > > equipment for > > problem solving. You are free to hold a diffenet opinion, butyou have not > > convinced > > me to change mine yet. > > > > If you need to you shold be able to get rid of this weight; again please > > explain to > > me what one is supposed to do if they cannot and they are out of gas or do not > > have > > the necessary redundancy. Cannister lights are great, but again if we are > > discussing > > the open water diver we are most likely not discussing a cannister lite, and > > you > > were giving advice to people who were going to mount p weights to backplates > > in > > addition to hard mounting their lights to their plates on single tanks; not > > very > > smart on their part imho. > > > > And arent the people who embolize from just going up the ones with pfo's? the > > ones > > who shouldnt be diving to begin with?besides we are not talking about this as > > a > > standard practice but rather as an emergency procedure. If you this more than > > twice > > when its not practice, you need more instruction or more practice. > > > > > > btw the w/e diving wasnt bad, scootered the San Diego on sat, lizzie D and > > mistletoe > > on sun, 2 ft seas both days.Not exactly the bmf, but it will do for now. > > > > rgds, > > > > Al Marvelli > > > > Jim Cobb wrote: > > > >> Al, I can't imagine any scenario either rec or tech were dropping a weight > >> belt and rocketing to the surface does a diver any good. If you get yourself > >> neutral where you can do a controlled swimming ascent to the surface you are > >> better off. You don't need to be in deco to die of an embolism. Many people > >> dive way over-weighted because it is so easy to add a bunch of weight to a > >> weight belt. > >> > >> Not using a weight belt forces a diver to get his buoyancy right for a > >> particular type of diving. In my case I always take my canister light, this > >> suffices for me. In a tech scenario you need the extra weight with AL > >> doubles and a wetsuit due to their buoyancy characteristics. Even in this > >> situation you use just enough weight to be neutral, not a ton so you rocket > >> to the surface at the slightest difficulty. > >> > >> Jim > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > > > > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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