Howdy Johnny,

#1 - Tri-laminate suit = consistent buoyancy force regardless of depth
resulting in starting your dive slightly negative from the weight of you air
(4-8# per tank).

#2 - Neoprene suit = variable buoyancy force depending on depth which, if
weighted to be neutral at the surface will result in being extremely
negative at depth - the deeper the more negative plus the weight of your air
(4-8# per tank).

I guess I don't understand the "down under" logic but how do you figure that
option # 2 makes for a less complicated dive than option #1?

I have never had the problem arise that I had to remove my gear, but I have
done it without problem with a drysuit even as far back as the mid 70's
using wings & weight integrated backpack where all the weight was on the
pack. No problem. But since I didn't start diving since '62, I probably just
don't have enough experience <G>.

Now, how often have you had to remove your kit in order to extricate
yourself from a situation? Or,  how many other divers do you know that have
had to do so?

The only one I can recall was Mike Nelson who used to do it about every week
on "Sea Hunt" on Sunday evening on TV.

I would rather rig my gear for real life diving situations and leave fantasy
to the blokes in Hollywood.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: John McMillan. <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
To: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Cc: dmdalton <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2000 4:38 PM
Subject: Fw: Weights


>
>
> Gi Day  Dave.
>
>  I a aware of the different characteristics of Dive Suits and obviously if
>  you chose to dive one that complicates the weighting factor, "your
> problem".
>  I think we have said enough on this subject, it has certainly provoked
some
>  thought and discussion.
>
>  Hoo Roo
>  Johnny Mack
>  Down Under
>
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: dmdalton <dmdalton@qu*.ne*>
> > To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>; John McMillan
> <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 2:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: Weights
> >
> >
>  > Couple of thoughts on this issue:
>  >
> >
> > .
> >
> > > If you are going to say you must be in a neutral state without you
gear
> on
> > > (just you and your exposure suit) they you must figure what you need
to
> > > offset your exposure suit - consequently it can't be just a 6# weight
> > belt.
>
>  Slightly negative is better
>
> > > If you are diving trilaminate your buoyancy factor is consistent from
> the
> > > surface to whatever depth you are going to dive - assuming you dive it
> > right
> > > and only add enough gas to take the pinch off. With this suit you will
> > need
> > > 16-30# based on your undergarments and your size. A 6# belt would not
> > offer
> > > much help in keeping you balanced without your other gear.
> >
> >
> > > If you are diving a neoprene drysuit or a wet suit, you will NEVER
have
> a
> > > balanced situation except at one depth. If you are neutral at  the
> surface
> > > with a 20# belt you will be negative 10# at 33fsw. Not exactly
> "balanced".
> >
> >
> > > The definition of "balanced" that I understand (and utilize) is that
> your
> > > gear (with tanks between 0 & 500 psi) allow you to be neutral with no
> air
> > in
> > > your wings/BC at 10-20 ft. That way the only excess weight your
wings/BC
> > has
> > > to provide lift for is the weight of the air in your tanks at the
start
> of
> > > your dive, allowing you to dive smaller (=less drag) wings) (assuming
> you
> > > dive trilaminate).
>
>  It certainly does allow you to dive smaller but dosn't fix the problem if
>  and when it arrises.
>
>  Think about it.
>
> > > Use your head.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> > > To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> > > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 11:30 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > I honestly can't think of a situation that would require you to take
> off
> > > all
> > > > your gear underwater besides getting stuck in a restriction so small
> > that
> > > > you shouldn't have been diving it anyway.
> > > >
> > > > I think that the chances of getting into a situation needing full
gear
> > > > removal is so slight that it doesn't warrant a weight belt.
> > > >
> > > > Weight belts do have their place in diving, I still use mine quite
> > > > frequently depending on the setup I'm using, I just never dive it
with
> > > more
> > > > than 6 lbs now.  Even getting rid of those 6 lbs makes a huge
> difference
> > > for
> > > > comfort.
> > > >
> > > > So John, what likely scenarios require you to take all your gear
off?
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> > > > To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> > > > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:05 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > "Gi Day" Steve.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve you said it in your last comment "WEAR A BALANCED RIG".
> > > > >
> > > > > If and WHEN the shit hits the fan and the diver has no choice but
to
> > get
> > > > out
> > > > > of his gear.
> > > > > If the diver independent of his rig is balanced, the task loading
in
> a
> > > > > highly stressed situation will be significantly reduced.
> > > > > If you need to add weight to your rig to achieve this balance then
> do
> > > so,
> > > > a
> > > > > P/V weight in this case would be practical.
> > > > >
> > > > > The guys that don't take their gear off under water if its the
only
> > way
> > > to
> > > > > fix the problem DIE.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also hate wearing a weight belt, however it doesn't have to be
too
> > > heavy
> > > > > as it is only adjusting the buoyancy of the diver not the Diver
and
> > the
> > > > rig.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoo Roo
> > > > > Johnny Mack
> > > > > Down Under.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> > > > > To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>; Techdiver Mailing
List
> > > > > <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:48 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Since when does a P/V weight constitute weights "all over the
> place
> > > "???
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why is a weight belt more effective?  Why are you taking your
gear
> > off
> > > > > > underwater?
> > > > > > Think about this... Pressed Steel 104s + Drysuit + SS backplate
=
> no
> > > > > > additional weight!
> > > > > > What do those guys do when they take off their gear underwater?
> > They
> > > > > don't.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Comfort-wise, I hate weight belts with a passion.  Getting rid
of
> it
> > > > will
> > > > > > provide more comfort, less wear on your exposure suit, and
better
> > > > airflow
> > > > > > through your drysuit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Getting up off the bottom is easy... dive a balanced rig.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> > > > > > To: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:30 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I read a lot of crap in the many posts that have been
presented
> > over
> > > > the
> > > > > > > last few days regarding weighting. Most of the suggestions
have
> > been
> > > > > down
> > > > > > > right bloody dangerous, stupid, and idiotic. Hey guys what
> > happened
> > > to
> > > > > > > keeping it simple. We should weight ourselves with out tanks
> > harness
> > > > etc
> > > > > > > attached, just negative. if we are still negative with the
tanks
> > and
> > > > > > harness
> > > > > > > etc on then we are correctly weighted. Using the traditional
> > weight
> > > > belt
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > the most effective way of doing this. Have a bloody good think
> > about
> > > > why
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > should be weighted this way before you make any comments. The
> guys
> > > > that
> > > > > > want
> > > > > > > to wear tank weights etc all over the place have a think about
> > > > buoyancy
> > > > > > > control if you have to take your gear off in water at depth.
If
> > and
> > > > when
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > shit hits the fan and you have to do this with weights all
over
> > your
> > > > > gear
> > > > > > > "good luck".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hoo Roo
> > > > > > > Johnny Mack
> > > > > > > Down Under
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: John Walker <techdive@ea*.ne*>
> > > > > > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:11 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    Hell Cobber they give me a sore back.  I'd bet Mike Black
> > (you
> > > > > know,
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > guy that doesn't dive) would consider this a Type 2 DCS hit.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >     Dr. John Walker
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ma*.ci*.co*>
> > > > > > > > To: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>; Paul Braunbehrens
> > > > > > > > <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> > > > > > > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:02 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Weight belt for wetsuits. Weight belt fucks up the airflow
> in
> > > your
> > > > > > > drysuit
> > > > > > > > > and is a failure point. I hate weight belts.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >    Jim
> > > > > > > >
> > >
  -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > >  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:24:40 -0400
> > > > > > > > > > To: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> > > > > > > > > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I dont mean to flame Paul personally but I have to ask
> some
> > > > simple
> > > > > > > > questions
> > > > > > > > > > here.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Why is the weight belt not ideal? its cheap, easy to
> learn,
> > > and
> > > > > > found
> > > > > > > > > > everywhere.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The belt gives you a built in failure indicator< if you
> are
> > > > paying
> > > > > > > > attnetion
> > > > > > > > > > you can feel it slip, and thats easy to correct on your
> own>
> > > and
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > > under you crotch stap has a built in anti ditch safety.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > and also
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > what is the facination with non ditchable weight?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > especially on a rig that is limited to no stop diving by
> > > > > > definition??
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I can understand its significance on a deco dive, but
you
> > all
> > > do
> > > > > > > realize
> > > > > > > > > > that if your worst fears come true and you undergo a
> buoyant
> > > > > ascent
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > are merely performing skills practice?? That evey agency
> has
> > > > blow
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > go
> > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > its last resort for ndl diving?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > have any of you removed your weights during a dive? what
> was
> > > the
> > > > > > > result?
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > had my belt off three times in front of the class i was
> > > helping
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > tonite,
> > > > > > > > > > no problem with an al 80 with an al plate and a 1/4 suit
> in
> > > 12
> > > > ft
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > water,
> > > > > > > > > > i had plenty of time to dump the bc and remain with my
> > weight
> > > > belt
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > a little effort. Are we all just not paying attention?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > worried about buckle failure? wear two.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We are not even going to get into the pony bottle, but
fyi
> > my
> > > > > > > > understanding
> > > > > > > > > > of hogarthian means ultra minimal as in no reserve gas,
> even
> > > in
> > > > > > > > overhead.
> > > > > > > > > > and of course the bottle is unnecessary for anything,
you
> > can
> > > > > either
> > > > > > > > blow
> > > > > > > > > > and go or you cant and if you cant you need a real
> redundant
> > > > > system,
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > 13
> > > > > > > > > > freaking cu ft. This w/e i was forced to dive off the
bow
> > b/c
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > customers
> > > > > > > > > > used up all the rack space with their pony bottles
filled
> > with
> > > > > > nitrox
> > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > hot for the bottom< typical, they have all been hosed
and
> > > regard
> > > > > dir
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > internet bs>and then i had to endure the shop owners
> > bitching
> > > > > about
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > doubles being too much gear for the dives< which they
> were,
> > > but
> > > > i
> > > > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > > > them empty and gas costs money so i aint freaking
wasting
> > > it>so
> > > > i
> > > > > am
> > > > > > > > ready
> > > > > > > > > > for all comers on this pony bullshit.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You dont need a pony bottle unless you are solo diving
> > without
> > > a
> > > > > > plan.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Think it through people.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Al Marvelli
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > PS if those two quarry guys dont send me snail addresses
> ill
> > > > never
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > able
> > > > > > > > > > to mail them schedules and since i lost my inbox i dont
> > > > havetheir
> > > > > e
> > > > > > > > > > addresses, so get back to me fellas.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> OK, I went through tons of archives last night, trying
to
> > get
> > > > to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> bottom of this.  First, let me tell you my setup.  I'm
> > diving
> > > a
> > > > > > > > > >> backplate and wings, with a drysuit, and (for now) a
> single
> > > > tank
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> a pony bottle.  Leaving enough air in my suit so I can
> > still
> > > > move
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> do a safety stop at the end of a dive, I need 17 pounds
> on
> > my
> > > > > belt
> > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > > >> dive in cold water).
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Right now this weight is on my weight belt, which is ok
> but
> > > not
> > > > > > > ideal.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Perusing the archives, it seems the consensus is to
make
> a
> > V
> > > > > weight
> > > > > > > > > >> for at least some of this.  Let's say it will weigh
about
> 9
> > > > > Pounds.
> > > > > > > > > >> This still leaves 8 pounds.  I could then either leave
> that
> > > on
> > > > my
> > > > > > > > > >> weight belt, or I could put it in the Halcyon weight
> > pouches.
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > > >> assume that when I go to doubles I won't need most of
it
> > > > anymore?
> > > > > > > > > >> Also, DiveRite sells a "trim weight" that will fit
> between
> > > the
> > > > > > bolts
> > > > > > > > > >> on the backplate.  I was thinking of this as an option.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Also, I read a lot of posts saying the canister light
is
> 6
> > > > pounds
> > > > > > > > > >> negative (or thereabouts).  Mine is 1.5 pounds
negative,
> > > which
> > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > >> I have to account for that weight somewhere.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> One post I read which made a lot of sense, said that
you
> > > should
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > >> about 5 or 6 pounds of ditchable weight (if any).  When
> you
> > > > ditch
> > > > > > > > > >> your weight you don't want to become so positive as to
> end
> > up
> > > > in
> > > > > > > > > >> lunar orbit.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I would like to get as close to hogarthian as possible
> > before
> > > > > > moving
> > > > > > > > > >> to doubles, so any help is appreciated.  I'm even
moving
> my
> > > > > > canister
> > > > > > > > > >> back on my harness (I had it upside down and attached
to
> > the
> > > > > > > > > >> backplate, but I find that it has a tendency to sit on
> the
> > > > wiring
> > > > > > > > > >> connection...not good).
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > >> Paul Braunbehrens mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*
> > > > > > > > > >> http://www.daw-mac.com Mailing list for digital audio
on
> > the
> > > > mac
> > > > > > > > > >> --
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