Couple of thoughts on this issue:

If you are going to say you must be in a neutral state without you gear on
(just you and your exposure suit) they you must figure what you need to
offset your exposure suit - consequently it can't be just a 6# weight belt.

If you are diving trilaminate your buoyancy factor is consistent from the
surface to whatever depth you are going to dive - assuming you dive it right
and only add enough gas to take the pinch off. With this suit you will need
16-30# based on your undergarments and your size. A 6# belt would not offer
much help in keeping you balanced without your other gear.

If you are diving a neoprene drysuit or a wet suit, you will NEVER have a
balanced situation except at one depth. If you are neutral at  the surface
with a 20# belt you will be negative 10# at 33fsw. Not exactly "balanced".

The definition of "balanced" that I understand (and utilize) is that your
gear (with tanks between 0 & 500 psi) allow you to be neutral with no air in
your wings/BC at 10-20 ft. That way the only excess weight your wings/BC has
to provide lift for is the weight of the air in your tanks at the start of
your dive, allowing you to dive smaller (=less drag) wings) (assuming you
dive trilaminate).

Use your head.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: Weights


> Hi John,
>
> I honestly can't think of a situation that would require you to take off
all
> your gear underwater besides getting stuck in a restriction so small that
> you shouldn't have been diving it anyway.
>
> I think that the chances of getting into a situation needing full gear
> removal is so slight that it doesn't warrant a weight belt.
>
> Weight belts do have their place in diving, I still use mine quite
> frequently depending on the setup I'm using, I just never dive it with
more
> than 6 lbs now.  Even getting rid of those 6 lbs makes a huge difference
for
> comfort.
>
> So John, what likely scenarios require you to take all your gear off?
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Weights
>
>
> > "Gi Day" Steve.
> >
> > Steve you said it in your last comment "WEAR A BALANCED RIG".
> >
> > If and WHEN the shit hits the fan and the diver has no choice but to get
> out
> > of his gear.
> > If the diver independent of his rig is balanced, the task loading in a
> > highly stressed situation will be significantly reduced.
> > If you need to add weight to your rig to achieve this balance then do
so,
> a
> > P/V weight in this case would be practical.
> >
> > The guys that don't take their gear off under water if its the only way
to
> > fix the problem DIE.
> >
> > I also hate wearing a weight belt, however it doesn't have to be too
heavy
> > as it is only adjusting the buoyancy of the diver not the Diver and the
> rig.
> >
> > Hoo Roo
> > Johnny Mack
> > Down Under.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>
> > To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>; Techdiver Mailing List
> > <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: Weights
> >
> >
> > > Since when does a P/V weight constitute weights "all over the place
"???
> > >
> > > Why is a weight belt more effective?  Why are you taking your gear off
> > > underwater?
> > > Think about this... Pressed Steel 104s + Drysuit + SS backplate = no
> > > additional weight!
> > > What do those guys do when they take off their gear underwater?  They
> > don't.
> > >
> > > Comfort-wise, I hate weight belts with a passion.  Getting rid of it
> will
> > > provide more comfort, less wear on your exposure suit, and better
> airflow
> > > through your drysuit.
> > >
> > > Getting up off the bottom is easy... dive a balanced rig.
> > >
> > > steve
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>
> > > To: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:30 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > >
> > >
> > > > I read a lot of crap in the many posts that have been presented over
> the
> > > > last few days regarding weighting. Most of the suggestions have been
> > down
> > > > right bloody dangerous, stupid, and idiotic. Hey guys what happened
to
> > > > keeping it simple. We should weight ourselves with out tanks harness
> etc
> > > > attached, just negative. if we are still negative with the tanks and
> > > harness
> > > > etc on then we are correctly weighted. Using the traditional weight
> belt
> > > is
> > > > the most effective way of doing this. Have a bloody good think about
> why
> > > you
> > > > should be weighted this way before you make any comments. The guys
> that
> > > want
> > > > to wear tank weights etc all over the place have a think about
> buoyancy
> > > > control if you have to take your gear off in water at depth. If and
> when
> > > the
> > > > shit hits the fan and you have to do this with weights all over your
> > gear
> > > > "good luck".
> > > >
> > > > Hoo Roo
> > > > Johnny Mack
> > > > Down Under
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: John Walker <techdive@ea*.ne*>
> > > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:11 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >    Hell Cobber they give me a sore back.  I'd bet Mike Black (you
> > know,
> > > > the
> > > > > guy that doesn't dive) would consider this a Type 2 DCS hit.
> > > > >
> > > > >     Dr. John Walker
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ma*.ci*.co*>
> > > > > To: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>; Paul Braunbehrens
> > > > > <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> > > > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:02 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Weight belt for wetsuits. Weight belt fucks up the airflow in
your
> > > > drysuit
> > > > > > and is a failure point. I hate weight belts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    Jim
> > > > >
>   -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >  Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>
> > > > > > > Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:24:40 -0400
> > > > > > > To: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*>
> > > > > > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I dont mean to flame Paul personally but I have to ask some
> simple
> > > > > questions
> > > > > > > here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why is the weight belt not ideal? its cheap, easy to learn,
and
> > > found
> > > > > > > everywhere.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The belt gives you a built in failure indicator< if you are
> paying
> > > > > attnetion
> > > > > > > you can feel it slip, and thats easy to correct on your own>
and
> > if
> > > > its
> > > > > > > under you crotch stap has a built in anti ditch safety.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > and also
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > what is the facination with non ditchable weight?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > especially on a rig that is limited to no stop diving by
> > > definition??
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can understand its significance on a deco dive, but you all
do
> > > > realize
> > > > > > > that if your worst fears come true and you undergo a buoyant
> > ascent
> > > ,
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > are merely performing skills practice?? That evey agency has
> blow
> > > and
> > > > go
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > its last resort for ndl diving?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > have any of you removed your weights during a dive? what was
the
> > > > result?
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > had my belt off three times in front of the class i was
helping
> > with
> > > > > tonite,
> > > > > > > no problem with an al 80 with an al plate and a 1/4 suit  in
12
> ft
> > > of
> > > > > water,
> > > > > > > i had plenty of time to dump the bc and remain with my weight
> belt
> > > > with
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > a little effort. Are we all just not paying attention?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > worried about buckle failure? wear two.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We are not even going to get into the pony bottle, but fyi my
> > > > > understanding
> > > > > > > of hogarthian means ultra minimal as in no reserve gas, even
in
> > > > > overhead.
> > > > > > > and of course the bottle is unnecessary for anything, you can
> > either
> > > > > blow
> > > > > > > and go or you cant and if you cant you need a real redundant
> > system,
> > > > not
> > > > > 13
> > > > > > > freaking cu ft. This w/e i was forced to dive off the bow b/c
> the
> > > > > customers
> > > > > > > used up all the rack space with their pony bottles filled with
> > > nitrox
> > > > > too
> > > > > > > hot for the bottom< typical, they have all been hosed and
regard
> > dir
> > > > as
> > > > > > > internet bs>and then i had to endure the shop owners bitching
> > about
> > > my
> > > > > > > doubles being too much gear for the dives< which they were,
but
> i
> > > > needed
> > > > > > > them empty and gas costs money so i aint freaking wasting
it>so
> i
> > am
> > > > > ready
> > > > > > > for all comers on this pony bullshit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You dont need a pony bottle unless you are solo diving without
a
> > > plan.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Think it through people.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Al Marvelli
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS if those two quarry guys dont send me snail addresses ill
> never
> > > be
> > > > > able
> > > > > > > to mail them schedules and since i lost my inbox i dont
> havetheir
> > e
> > > > > > > addresses, so get back to me fellas.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> OK, I went through tons of archives last night, trying to get
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > >> bottom of this.  First, let me tell you my setup.  I'm diving
a
> > > > > > >> backplate and wings, with a drysuit, and (for now) a single
> tank
> > > and
> > > > > > >> a pony bottle.  Leaving enough air in my suit so I can still
> move
> > > and
> > > > > > >> do a safety stop at the end of a dive, I need 17 pounds on my
> > belt
> > > (I
> > > > > > >> dive in cold water).
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Right now this weight is on my weight belt, which is ok but
not
> > > > ideal.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Perusing the archives, it seems the consensus is to make a V
> > weight
> > > > > > >> for at least some of this.  Let's say it will weigh about 9
> > Pounds.
> > > > > > >> This still leaves 8 pounds.  I could then either leave that
on
> my
> > > > > > >> weight belt, or I could put it in the Halcyon weight pouches.
> I
> > > > > > >> assume that when I go to doubles I won't need most of it
> anymore?
> > > > > > >> Also, DiveRite sells a "trim weight" that will fit between
the
> > > bolts
> > > > > > >> on the backplate.  I was thinking of this as an option.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Also, I read a lot of posts saying the canister light is 6
> pounds
> > > > > > >> negative (or thereabouts).  Mine is 1.5 pounds negative,
which
> > > means
> > > > > > >> I have to account for that weight somewhere.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> One post I read which made a lot of sense, said that you
should
> > > have
> > > > > > >> about 5 or 6 pounds of ditchable weight (if any).  When you
> ditch
> > > > > > >> your weight you don't want to become so positive as to end up
> in
> > > > > > >> lunar orbit.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I would like to get as close to hogarthian as possible before
> > > moving
> > > > > > >> to doubles, so any help is appreciated.  I'm even moving my
> > > canister
> > > > > > >> back on my harness (I had it upside down and attached to the
> > > > > > >> backplate, but I find that it has a tendency to sit on the
> wiring
> > > > > > >> connection...not good).
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> Paul Braunbehrens mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co*
> > > > > > >> http://www.daw-mac.com Mailing list for digital audio on the
> mac
> > > > > > >> --
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