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Gi Day Dave. I a aware of the different characteristics of Dive Suits and obviously if you chose to dive one that complicates the weighting factor, "your problem". I think we have said enough on this subject, it has certainly provoked some thought and discussion. Hoo Roo Johnny Mack Down Under > ----- Original Message ----- > From: dmdalton <dmdalton@qu*.ne*> > To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*>; John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > Sent: Monday, June 19, 2000 2:19 AM > Subject: Re: Weights > > > Couple of thoughts on this issue: > > > . > > > If you are going to say you must be in a neutral state without you gear on > > (just you and your exposure suit) they you must figure what you need to > > offset your exposure suit - consequently it can't be just a 6# weight > belt. Slightly negative is better > > If you are diving trilaminate your buoyancy factor is consistent from the > > surface to whatever depth you are going to dive - assuming you dive it > right > > and only add enough gas to take the pinch off. With this suit you will > need > > 16-30# based on your undergarments and your size. A 6# belt would not > offer > > much help in keeping you balanced without your other gear. > > > > If you are diving a neoprene drysuit or a wet suit, you will NEVER have a > > balanced situation except at one depth. If you are neutral at the surface > > with a 20# belt you will be negative 10# at 33fsw. Not exactly "balanced". > > > > The definition of "balanced" that I understand (and utilize) is that your > > gear (with tanks between 0 & 500 psi) allow you to be neutral with no air > in > > your wings/BC at 10-20 ft. That way the only excess weight your wings/BC > has > > to provide lift for is the weight of the air in your tanks at the start of > > your dive, allowing you to dive smaller (=less drag) wings) (assuming you > > dive trilaminate). It certainly does allow you to dive smaller but dosn't fix the problem if and when it arrises. Think about it. > > Use your head. > > > > Dave > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*> > > To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 11:30 PM > > Subject: Re: Weights > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > I honestly can't think of a situation that would require you to take off > > all > > > your gear underwater besides getting stuck in a restriction so small > that > > > you shouldn't have been diving it anyway. > > > > > > I think that the chances of getting into a situation needing full gear > > > removal is so slight that it doesn't warrant a weight belt. > > > > > > Weight belts do have their place in diving, I still use mine quite > > > frequently depending on the setup I'm using, I just never dive it with > > more > > > than 6 lbs now. Even getting rid of those 6 lbs makes a huge difference > > for > > > comfort. > > > > > > So John, what likely scenarios require you to take all your gear off? > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > > > To: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*> > > > Cc: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2000 5:05 PM > > > Subject: Re: Weights > > > > > > > > > > "Gi Day" Steve. > > > > > > > > Steve you said it in your last comment "WEAR A BALANCED RIG". > > > > > > > > If and WHEN the shit hits the fan and the diver has no choice but to > get > > > out > > > > of his gear. > > > > If the diver independent of his rig is balanced, the task loading in a > > > > highly stressed situation will be significantly reduced. > > > > If you need to add weight to your rig to achieve this balance then do > > so, > > > a > > > > P/V weight in this case would be practical. > > > > > > > > The guys that don't take their gear off under water if its the only > way > > to > > > > fix the problem DIE. > > > > > > > > I also hate wearing a weight belt, however it doesn't have to be too > > heavy > > > > as it is only adjusting the buoyancy of the diver not the Diver and > the > > > rig. > > > > > > > > Hoo Roo > > > > Johnny Mack > > > > Down Under. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Steve <se2schul@uw*.ca*> > > > > To: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*>; Techdiver Mailing List > > > > <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 17, 1999 11:48 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Weights > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since when does a P/V weight constitute weights "all over the place > > "??? > > > > > > > > > > Why is a weight belt more effective? Why are you taking your gear > off > > > > > underwater? > > > > > Think about this... Pressed Steel 104s + Drysuit + SS backplate = no > > > > > additional weight! > > > > > What do those guys do when they take off their gear underwater? > They > > > > don't. > > > > > > > > > > Comfort-wise, I hate weight belts with a passion. Getting rid of it > > > will > > > > > provide more comfort, less wear on your exposure suit, and better > > > airflow > > > > > through your drysuit. > > > > > > > > > > Getting up off the bottom is easy... dive a balanced rig. > > > > > > > > > > steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: John McMillan <mcmillan_knit@on*.ne*.au*> > > > > > To: Techdiver Mailing List <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 7:30 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read a lot of crap in the many posts that have been presented > over > > > the > > > > > > last few days regarding weighting. Most of the suggestions have > been > > > > down > > > > > > right bloody dangerous, stupid, and idiotic. Hey guys what > happened > > to > > > > > > keeping it simple. We should weight ourselves with out tanks > harness > > > etc > > > > > > attached, just negative. if we are still negative with the tanks > and > > > > > harness > > > > > > etc on then we are correctly weighted. Using the traditional > weight > > > belt > > > > > is > > > > > > the most effective way of doing this. Have a bloody good think > about > > > why > > > > > you > > > > > > should be weighted this way before you make any comments. The guys > > > that > > > > > want > > > > > > to wear tank weights etc all over the place have a think about > > > buoyancy > > > > > > control if you have to take your gear off in water at depth. If > and > > > when > > > > > the > > > > > > shit hits the fan and you have to do this with weights all over > your > > > > gear > > > > > > "good luck". > > > > > > > > > > > > Hoo Roo > > > > > > Johnny Mack > > > > > > Down Under > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: John Walker <techdive@ea*.ne*> > > > > > > To: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:11 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hell Cobber they give me a sore back. I'd bet Mike Black > (you > > > > know, > > > > > > the > > > > > > > guy that doesn't dive) would consider this a Type 2 DCS hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. John Walker > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: Jim Cobb <cobber@ma*.ci*.co*> > > > > > > > To: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*>; Paul Braunbehrens > > > > > > > <Bakalite@ba*.co*> > > > > > > > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 9:02 AM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weight belt for wetsuits. Weight belt fucks up the airflow in > > your > > > > > > drysuit > > > > > > > > and is a failure point. I hate weight belts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Learn About Trimix at http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Al Marvelli <ajmarve@ba*.ne*> > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:24:40 -0400 > > > > > > > > > To: Paul Braunbehrens <Bakalite@ba*.co*> > > > > > > > > > Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Weights > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont mean to flame Paul personally but I have to ask some > > > simple > > > > > > > questions > > > > > > > > > here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is the weight belt not ideal? its cheap, easy to learn, > > and > > > > > found > > > > > > > > > everywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The belt gives you a built in failure indicator< if you are > > > paying > > > > > > > attnetion > > > > > > > > > you can feel it slip, and thats easy to correct on your own> > > and > > > > if > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > under you crotch stap has a built in anti ditch safety. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and also > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > what is the facination with non ditchable weight? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > especially on a rig that is limited to no stop diving by > > > > > definition?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can understand its significance on a deco dive, but you > all > > do > > > > > > realize > > > > > > > > > that if your worst fears come true and you undergo a buoyant > > > > ascent > > > > > , > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > are merely performing skills practice?? That evey agency has > > > blow > > > > > and > > > > > > go > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > its last resort for ndl diving? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have any of you removed your weights during a dive? what was > > the > > > > > > result? > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > had my belt off three times in front of the class i was > > helping > > > > with > > > > > > > tonite, > > > > > > > > > no problem with an al 80 with an al plate and a 1/4 suit in > > 12 > > > ft > > > > > of > > > > > > > water, > > > > > > > > > i had plenty of time to dump the bc and remain with my > weight > > > belt > > > > > > with > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > a little effort. Are we all just not paying attention? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > worried about buckle failure? wear two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are not even going to get into the pony bottle, but fyi > my > > > > > > > understanding > > > > > > > > > of hogarthian means ultra minimal as in no reserve gas, even > > in > > > > > > > overhead. > > > > > > > > > and of course the bottle is unnecessary for anything, you > can > > > > either > > > > > > > blow > > > > > > > > > and go or you cant and if you cant you need a real redundant > > > > system, > > > > > > not > > > > > > > 13 > > > > > > > > > freaking cu ft. This w/e i was forced to dive off the bow > b/c > > > the > > > > > > > customers > > > > > > > > > used up all the rack space with their pony bottles filled > with > > > > > nitrox > > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > > hot for the bottom< typical, they have all been hosed and > > regard > > > > dir > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > internet bs>and then i had to endure the shop owners > bitching > > > > about > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > doubles being too much gear for the dives< which they were, > > but > > > i > > > > > > needed > > > > > > > > > them empty and gas costs money so i aint freaking wasting > > it>so > > > i > > > > am > > > > > > > ready > > > > > > > > > for all comers on this pony bullshit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You dont need a pony bottle unless you are solo diving > without > > a > > > > > plan. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Think it through people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Al Marvelli > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS if those two quarry guys dont send me snail addresses ill > > > never > > > > > be > > > > > > > able > > > > > > > > > to mail them schedules and since i lost my inbox i dont > > > havetheir > > > > e > > > > > > > > > addresses, so get back to me fellas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul Braunbehrens wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> OK, I went through tons of archives last night, trying to > get > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > > >> bottom of this. First, let me tell you my setup. I'm > diving > > a > > > > > > > > >> backplate and wings, with a drysuit, and (for now) a single > > > tank > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >> a pony bottle. Leaving enough air in my suit so I can > still > > > move > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >> do a safety stop at the end of a dive, I need 17 pounds on > my > > > > belt > > > > > (I > > > > > > > > >> dive in cold water). > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Right now this weight is on my weight belt, which is ok but > > not > > > > > > ideal. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Perusing the archives, it seems the consensus is to make a > V > > > > weight > > > > > > > > >> for at least some of this. Let's say it will weigh about 9 > > > > Pounds. > > > > > > > > >> This still leaves 8 pounds. I could then either leave that > > on > > > my > > > > > > > > >> weight belt, or I could put it in the Halcyon weight > pouches. > > > I > > > > > > > > >> assume that when I go to doubles I won't need most of it > > > anymore? > > > > > > > > >> Also, DiveRite sells a "trim weight" that will fit between > > the > > > > > bolts > > > > > > > > >> on the backplate. I was thinking of this as an option. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Also, I read a lot of posts saying the canister light is 6 > > > pounds > > > > > > > > >> negative (or thereabouts). Mine is 1.5 pounds negative, > > which > > > > > means > > > > > > > > >> I have to account for that weight somewhere. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> One post I read which made a lot of sense, said that you > > should > > > > > have > > > > > > > > >> about 5 or 6 pounds of ditchable weight (if any). When you > > > ditch > > > > > > > > >> your weight you don't want to become so positive as to end > up > > > in > > > > > > > > >> lunar orbit. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> I would like to get as close to hogarthian as possible > before > > > > > moving > > > > > > > > >> to doubles, so any help is appreciated. I'm even moving my > > > > > canister > > > > > > > > >> back on my harness (I had it upside down and attached to > the > > > > > > > > >> backplate, but I find that it has a tendency to sit on the > > > wiring > > > > > > > > >> connection...not good). > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Cheers, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > >> Paul Braunbehrens mailto:Bakalite@ba*.co* > > > > > > > > >> http://www.daw-mac.com Mailing list for digital audio on > the > > > mac > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > > > > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > > > > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > > > > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > > > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > > > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > > > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > > > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to > `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > -- > > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > > > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > > > > > > > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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