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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1EFB.C93F8F96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" George Irvine, Once again you prove to the list that you are a liar. What motivates you to make statements about people that are outright lies? Is it some Machiavellian tactic that you learned when you were younger? Now you claim to list that I have had only 12 cave dives. The week I dove in Akumal this year I had over 16 dives. Call it whatever you like, the Yucatan still has some of the most beautifull caves I have ever seen. I had my first cave dives there in 1978, some three years or so before you were cavern certified according to one of your friends. Now you claim to be doing research on me. How about the times you have bugged out on your dive buddies when the going got tough, how about the time that you shut off the deco gas on a bunch of boat divers? How many dive boats won't let you on board George? Stop your crying. I have never once claimed to be a cave diving expert nor do I claim to be a diving expert of any kind. I give opinions based on 21 years of diving. My first cave dives were in 1978 in virgin cave, my first ocean dives were in 1978 and my first wreck dives were in 1978. Since then I have amassed much more than the 12 resort cave dives that you claim. You have proven to the list many time that you are a bonafide liar. Please do us all a favor and stick with the advice giving. This Howard Stern shtick that you honor us with is both tiring and boring. It may be fun to listen to on the radio, but reading it day after day is a pain in the ass. Your advice is invaluable, you as a person are despicable (per your email persona). As far as the USCDT I would be honored if they invited me to dive with them on anything but a closed circuit rebreather. As far as them competing with you on distance, I was not aware that was there goal during Wakulla2 from all of the articles I have read. Are you trying to goad them into attempting such a feat? There are many divers in California that are great cave divers, it just costs them a little more money and time to get to the caves than you Floridians. The only oxymoron on the list is you minus the oxy. Greg Kuiper -----Original Message----- From: kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*] Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 10:03 AM To: Kuiper, Greg Cc: 'techdiver@aquanaut.com' Subject: Re: Madison blue fatatlities Greg, "California cave diver" is also an oxymoron. With your 12 resort course cave dives under your belt, you certainly make a good "expert". In fact, you should have been diving with the "usdct" - you could have fixed all of those broken lines for them and maybe they would have been able to get someplace and would not have missed 25,000 feet of cave, not to mention missing the end of the line by two miles. How about a little sympathy for me and the WKPP - just think, you stroke, there was NO LINE in the cave where we went, and let me tell you I sure was pissed when I had to put 50 some odd thousand feet in there just to dive. I am still pissed about that, and just between you and me, I blame it all on the "usdct" - they cost me about $2000 in cave line. Kuiper, Greg wrote: > > List, > The recent fatatlities at Madison Blue have made me reflect on cave > and wreck situations I have been in where if the line had broken I > would have had similar problems. How many of you have gone through > tight restrictions in tanninc or fine clay/limestone silt where you > couldn't see jack squat? I know I have and what a pain it the ass it > would be to all of a sudden run out of line on the exiting portion of > a cave dive. I was taught to take my safety reel, tie off to the end > of the line and go in search of the other end. I can think of many > spots I have been in where that could be almost impossible due to > current blowing the line downstream or multiple possible routes > through a zero visiblity area. It is also a pain in the ass to find > broken cave line amongst stalagmites in a zero vis environment. > > Cave line is tough, but after reading about the recent unfortunate > accident at Madison Blue and all the broken cave line that USCDT found > in Wakulla it makes me realize that it might be smart to run your own > line through certain areas where a broken line could mean life or > death. > > I don't mean every single tight place where there could be zero > visibility, but in those areas where there could be multiple paths and > only one leads to the exit. > > An anology that springs to mind is from when I used to rock climb. > Most American climbers use one thick rope for their climb where many > of the European climbers I used to know would use two ropes at a time > for their ascent in case one failed. > > In a life threatening environment like caves I don't think it would be > a bad idea to run a separate line on top of the already existing cave > line in the appropriate places. The divers at Madison blue might be > alive today if they had tried that. > > Dive safe everybody, > Greg Kuiper ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1EFB.C93F8F96 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2448.0"> <TITLE>RE: Madison blue fatatlities</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>George Irvine,</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Once again you prove to the list that you are a = liar. What motivates you to make statements about people that are = outright lies? Is it some Machiavellian tactic that you learned = when you were younger? Now you claim to list that I have had only = 12 cave dives. The week I dove in Akumal this year I had over 16 = dives. Call it whatever you like, the Yucatan still has some of = the most beautifull caves I have ever seen. I had my first cave = dives there in 1978, some three years or so before you were cavern = certified according to one of your friends.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Now you claim to be doing research on me. How = about the times you have bugged out on your dive buddies when the going = got tough, how about the time that you shut off the deco gas on a bunch = of boat divers? How many dive boats won't let you on board = George?</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Stop your crying. I have never once claimed to = be a cave diving expert nor do I claim to be a diving expert of any = kind. I give opinions based on 21 years of diving. My first = cave dives were in 1978 in virgin cave, my first ocean dives were in = 1978 and my first wreck dives were in 1978. Since then I have = amassed much more than the 12 resort cave dives that you = claim. You have proven to the list many time that you are a = bonafide liar. Please do us all a favor and stick with the advice = giving. This Howard Stern shtick that you honor us with is both = tiring and boring. It may be fun to listen to on the radio, but = reading it day after day is a pain in the ass.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Your advice is invaluable, you as a person are = despicable (per your email persona). </FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As far as the USCDT I would be honored if they = invited me to dive with them on anything but a closed circuit = rebreather. As far as them competing with you on distance, I was = not aware that was there goal during Wakulla2 from all of the articles = I have read. Are you trying to goad them into attempting such a = feat?</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>There are many divers in California that are great = cave divers, it just costs them a little more money and time to get to = the caves than you Floridians. The only oxymoron on the list is = you minus the oxy.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Greg Kuiper</FONT> </P> <BR> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: kirvine@sa*.ne* [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*">mailto:kirvine@safari.net</A>]</FONT>= <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 10:03 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Kuiper, Greg</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: 'techdiver@aquanaut.com'</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: Madison blue fatatlities</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Greg, "California cave diver" is also an = oxymoron. With your 12 resort</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>course cave dives under your belt, you certainly = make a good "expert".</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>In fact, you should have been diving with the = "usdct" - you could have</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>fixed all of those broken lines for them and maybe = they would have been</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>able to get someplace and would not have missed = 25,000 feet of cave, not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to mention missing the end of the line by two miles. = </FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>How about a little sympathy for me and the WKPP - = just think, you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>stroke, there was NO LINE in the cave where we went, = and let me tell you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I sure was pissed when I had to put 50 some odd = thousand feet in there</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>just to dive. I am still pissed about that, and just = between you and me,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I blame it all on the "usdct" - they cost = me about $2000 in cave line.</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kuiper, Greg wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> List,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> The recent fatatlities at Madison Blue have = made me reflect on cave</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> and wreck situations I have been in where if = the line had broken I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> would have had similar problems. How many = of you have gone through</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> tight restrictions in tanninc or fine = clay/limestone silt where you</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> couldn't see jack squat? I know I have = and what a pain it the ass it</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> would be to all of a sudden run out of line on = the exiting portion of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> a cave dive. I was taught to take my = safety reel, tie off to the end</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> of the line and go in search of the other = end. I can think of many</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> spots I have been in where that could be almost = impossible due to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> current blowing the line downstream or multiple = possible routes</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> through a zero visiblity area. It is also = a pain in the ass to find</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> broken cave line amongst stalagmites in a zero = vis environment.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Cave line is tough, but after reading about the = recent unfortunate</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> accident at Madison Blue and all the broken = cave line that USCDT found</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> in Wakulla it makes me realize that it might be = smart to run your own</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> line through certain areas where a broken line = could mean life or</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> death.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I don't mean every single tight place where = there could be zero</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> visibility, but in those areas where there = could be multiple paths and</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> only one leads to the exit.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> An anology that springs to mind is from when I = used to rock climb.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Most American climbers use one thick rope for = their climb where many</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> of the European climbers I used to know would = use two ropes at a time</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> for their ascent in case one failed.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> In a life threatening environment like caves I = don't think it would be</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> a bad idea to run a separate line on top of the = already existing cave</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> line in the appropriate places. The = divers at Madison blue might be</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> alive today if they had tried that.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Dive safe everybody,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Greg Kuiper</FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1EFB.C93F8F96-- -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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