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Bill Mee,
I was dead serious when I made the following comment,
"Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous would there not be a large
percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping dead? "
You misunderstand me if you feel I am being cute with you. I am simply
querying as to where the information is derived from for your statements.
I do feel that you are grasping at straws when you describe the deaths
relating to bungee wings.
You state that Mike Elkins died because he could not inflate his bungee
wings and yet his body was never found. Is your conclusion not an
assumation of what happened.
You state that Jane died because she breathed the wrong gas thus leading to
a convulsion and unconsiousness, and then she was found with hand locked on
the inflator. Are you saying that Jane recovered from her O2 hit and then
her b.c. did not inflate. Sounds like the instructor was at fault not the
gear.
You mention four people who have died while solo diving. A miniscule
percentage compared to the amount of people that practice solo diving.
The reason I question your broad statements is they do not seem to have very
little substance to them. I feel that you and many of your friends on the
list make very inflammatory accusations with no substance to back them up.
I have no beef with you personally. I just think that b.s. should be
challenged. This recent email of yours is seriously toned down compared to
the inflamatory one that you posted earlier. In that one you claimed credit
for multiple body recoveries and a hatred for the agencies that killed those
people. If this email is the only support you have for your recent post
then I am far from convinced that your statements have any credibility.
Regards,
Greg Kuiper
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mee [mailto:wwm@sa*.ne*]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 12:30 PM
To: Kuiper, Greg; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Cc: kirvine@sa*.ne*; bdi@wh*.ne*
Subject: Re: controlling manners on channel
Greg,
I was referring to the well documented deaths, which have been publicized
on this and other lists, over the last 2 years. I happen to be very familiar
with several of these cases and well informed with respect to others in much
the same way that you have shared your opinion on the deaths at Madison Blue
Springs. You will note that I have not commented on this tragedy inasmuch
as I am not informed regarding the specific details. Unlike a lot of people
my memory of the personal side of these tragedies is not in a perpetual
state of erasure.
You are very cute when you make remarks like
"Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous would there not be a large
percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping dead? "
Well Greg, do people who use cell phones have a higher incidence of brain
tumors or do people with brain tumors tend to like to use cell phones?
Michael Elkins did not just drop dead. He dropped to the bottom in 250fsw
offshore West Palm Beach, while wearing a wet suit and steel back tanks and
stage bottles. He was low on gas and his bungee wings did not inflate.
Because he was low on gas or as a result of the stress of his situation he
was unable to inflate these wings manaully or orally. His body has never
been recovered.
Are you aware of the amount of static lung loading required to inflate a
constrained gas bladder? Completely aside from the streamlining issue, do
you think that is a wise design feature to constrain the inflation system on
a buoyancy compensator?
Neither did Jane Orenstein simply drop dead. She also dropped to 270fsw
after having breathed the wrong deco gas during an "introductory" training
session (the high oxygen was on the right side - that should be obvious
right? Especially since there were no easily visble bottle markings) while
her instructor watched her. When George Irvine, Dan Volker and Robert
Carmichael recovered her body she had her hand locked around the inflator of
her bungee wings. They were not inflated, needless to say.
Maybe Charlie McGurr just dropped dead and nobody knows what killed him
because his buddies, who should have been there to be his last
chance, were making sure that they got their money's worth out of their
precious little charter. Instead of accompanying Charlie to the surface
they chose to leave him at the worst possible moment of his crisis. Are
people who solo dive just dropping deaed like flies? It's hard to say Greg,
when there is nobody around, kind of like the tree falling in the forest, to
determine what happened.
And then there was James Hendersen. Who was found dead in Devils Eye with
both knobs bent off right near the main line and not far from the exit. Jim
was an highly experienced ex fighter pilot and was also a airline pilot.
Gee, what a waste. He could have waited for someone to dive with him.
Oh, Greg, you surely surely haven't forgotten about Tony Smith. A real nice
guy with a lot of friends and a very experienced diver. He was effectively
solo when he jumped off the back of a dive boat with his air off, grossly
overweighted, and unfortunately, by himself. In his case the bungy wings
weren't at fault because there was no gas available to inflate them. His
buddies saved him, his deadbody that is, after they had completed their dive
and realized he wasn't around.
And last but not least, you just had to take a cheap shot as us on the issue
of the USDCT finding broken lines at Wakulla. The broken lines these guys
found were their own mess that their project had installed years prior and
we had left in place. You should be real proud that they followed your
recommendation and ran more line over the existing lines. A propos of
nothing, Henry Kendall was "solo diving" a Mk Cis Lunar rebreather in
Wakulla springs under the aegis of the USDCT when "natural causes" overcame
him and he was found face down on the bottom of the spring.
Greg, do you have any idea how disconcerting it is to be scootering along
along the line in a low visibility cave and suddenly find yourself off on
another line? It sounds to me that you need to come down here and tell us
all how the cow ate the cabbage.
Best regards,
Bill Mee
-----Original Message-----
From: Kuiper, Greg < GregKuiper@pa*.co*
<mailto:GregKuiper@pa*.co*> >
To: 'techdiver@aquanaut.com' <mailto:'techdiver@aquanaut.com'> <
techdiver@aquanaut.com <mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com> >
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 9:51 PM
Subject: RE: controlling manners on channel
Bill Mee,
In your email you claim that all the bodies you have pulled up have died as
a result of the following: "lack of bottle markings, overweighting, deep
air, failed bungee wings or solo diving." Can you please tell me which
bodies lacked the bottle markings, whose bungie wings failed, who you
recovered that was solo diving and who was overweighted.
In particular I am curious which agencies you claim promote the following
concepts:
Overweighting,
lack of bottle markings,
solo diving.
Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous would there not be a large
percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping dead? You may think
this a stupid question, but with your comments about them being so dangerous
I am curious as to why. I agree with you that they are not streamlined, but
if they are responsible for lots of deaths please inform the list as to
which deaths they are responsible for.
I would also be interested in why you would tell someone on the list not to
listen to my opinion.
And finally how many bodies have you pulled up?
This email is not meant to inflame or enrage you. I am just curious as to
what support you have for the previously metioned quote.
Thanks,
Greg Kuiper
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Mee [ mailto:wwm@sa*.ne* <mailto:wwm@sa*.ne*> ]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:42 PM
To: Anthony Appleyard
Cc: kirvine@sa*.ne*; techdiver@aquanaut.com; Jim Cobb; bdi;
john.r.strohm@BI*.co*; Jr."
Subject: Re: controlling manners on channel
Anthony,
There is nothing funny or polite when you recover the body of someone
partially eaten by crabs or bloated beyond recogntion or foaming and
bleeding at the mouth and ears after having been hauled up from 50 fathoms.
It is even less funny when you find that the direct or indirect cause of
death was some idiocy such as lack of bottle marking, overweighting, deep
air, failed bungee wings or solo diving or some other inexcusable nonsense.
When you see that such practices are either taught by or endorsed by
technical dive agencies or rogue dive instructors you become even more
incensed.
There is no language or manners foul enough to convey my displeasure with
those who encourage and promote practices which lead to death and misery.
Don't you think for one moment that the relatives of these dead people
simply forget about them in the same way that the "list" forgets their names
and their lives.
Before you go agreeing with the Dave Suttons, Kevin Flynns, Gregg Kuipers
and other offended people of the techno dive world with engorged "killfiles"
you stop and ask yourself if you would rather that you have someone such as
George Irvine speak out on your dead behalf or you would prefer some lame
and pathetic eulogy to the effect that "Why Anthony was a charming lad who
died happily while doing what he enjoyed most".
The fact is that George's so called "manners" get your attention and those
of the others in much the same way as good car wreck stops traffic, all the
while everyone complains about the traffic delay, but they rubber neck and
gawk anyway. Maybe when they observe the tragedy they are more careful
next time around.
And then I have ask myself, what sort of "tough guy" who really go and jumps
off the back of a pitching dive boat into 50 fathoms of dark water is
offended by some internet hyperbole. When I listen to some of the "epistles
of the offended" , which by the way have been pretty consistent over the
years in terms of complaint content, I am stunned by the pompous indignance
of the outraged. They rarely address the underlying issues, but instead
argue with the nature of the message delivery. Why don't these guys ask
themselves and others why Irvine is attacking some perceived stupidity?
Instead it is alway something like "he called the training agency which said
it was ok to breath from unmarked bottles dumbfucks" or he said that "the
accident scene was like an evidence table at a stupidity investigation" or
"they should provide free shovels with Inspriation Rebreathers" or I could
go on and on. I would rather that they take the same time that they
invested in the little public complaints to write out the names, published
on this list, of the people who died in the last two years while in engaged
in some form of technical diving, where the cause of death was preventable.
If you or anyone can't figure out why Irvine is apoplectically pissed off,
and instead get your panties in a wad, then feel free to email me privately
and I will be happy to explain to you quite civilly the genesis of the
problem. Or of course, you can do as John Strohm does and simply ask Irvine
politely and privately and you will receive a very rational, articulate,
deferential and polite answer.
Best wishes,
Bill Mee
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Appleyard <mclssaa2@fs*.mt*.um*.ac*.uk*>
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:48 AM
Subject: controlling manners on channel
Someone wrote:-
> Irvine quickly got added to my killfile, and it
> amazes me why anyone listens to his drivel.
john.r.strohm@BI*.co* replied (Subject: Re: A question about who is the
mouth):-
> Well, I'll tell you, Dave. I listen to George because he and his team
have
> done some absolutely incredible things, with a safety record that is
> several orders of magnitude better than anyone else. ...
There are these two sorts of things that people may object to on channel:-
(A) If in some matter of diving, I say that X=2, and Irvine says that X=3,
then each may say that the other's opinion is drivel, but they are both
reasoned statements and have a right to be heard, whether each is right or
wrong. I know it's annoying if the two persist in differing, but that's
life.
(B) Abuse and bad language, such as one recent message that contained 2
screenfuls of lavatory-mouthing in uppercase, I pity any women on channel
who
must wade through that sort of stuff. To me, it isn't just the
offensiveness,
but the bulk for me to wade through before I start work in the mornings:
e.g.
today half of my incoming email was the "A question about who is the mouth"
thread. Does "a stroke" as often used on this list as an accusation mean
"someone who strokes his own ego"? If not, what?, so we know what we are
talking about. Who on this list has heard of netiquette?
PLEASE why can't this list temporarily have a moderator until peoples'
manners and tempers simmer down? Reiteration and bad language don't get
through on email groups as Tolklang and Virus-L that have a moderator.
.....................................................................
Anthony Appleyard, http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk
<http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk> (sci-fi stories, 3D
graphics, software)
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<TITLE>RE: controlling manners on channel</TITLE>
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999>Bill
Mee,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999>I was dead serious when I made the following
comment,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=188260420-25101999>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial>"Also if you feel that bungee wings
are
dangerous would there not be a large percentage of the bungee wing wearing
crowd
dropping dead? "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=188260420-25101999>You
misunderstand me if you feel I am being cute with you. I am simply
querying as to where the information is derived from for your
statements.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=188260420-25101999>I
do feel
that you are grasping at straws when you describe the deaths relating to bungee
wings.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=188260420-25101999>You
state
that Mike Elkins died because he could not inflate his bungee wings and yet his
body was never found. Is your conclusion not an assumation of what
happened.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=188260420-25101999>You
state
that Jane died because she breathed the wrong gas thus leading to a convulsion
and unconsiousness, and then she was found with hand locked on the
inflator. Are you saying that Jane recovered from her O2 hit and then her
b.c. did not inflate. Sounds like the instructor was at fault not the
gear.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=188260420-25101999>You
mention four people who have died while solo diving. A miniscule
percentage compared to the amount of people that practice solo
diving.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=188260420-25101999>The
reason I
question your broad statements is they do not seem to have very little
substance to them.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999> I feel that you and many of your friends on the
list make very inflammatory accusations with no substance to back them
up.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=188260420-25101999>I
have no
beef with you personally. I just think that b.s. should be
challenged. This recent email of yours is seriously toned down compared
to
the inflamatory one that you posted earlier. In that one you claimed
credit for multiple body recoveries and a hatred for the agencies that killed
those people. If this email is the only support you have for your recent
post then I am far from convinced that your statements have any
credibility.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999>Greg
Kuiper</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=188260420-25101999></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial> </FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bill Mee
[mailto:wwm@sa*.ne*]<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, October 25, 1999 12:30 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Kuiper, Greg;
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> kirvine@sa*.ne*;
bdi@wh*.ne*<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: controlling manners on
channel<BR><BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Greg,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>I was referring to the well documented deaths, which
have
been publicized on this and other lists, over the last 2 years. I
happen
to be very familiar with several of these cases and well informed with
respect
to others in much the same way that you have shared your opinion on the
deaths
at Madison Blue Springs. You will note that I have not commented on
this
tragedy inasmuch as I am not informed regarding the specific details. Unlike
a
lot of people my memory of the personal side of these tragedies is not in a
perpetual state of erasure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>You are very cute when you make remarks like
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>"Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous
would
there not be a large percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping
dead? "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Well Greg, do people who use cell phones have a
higher
incidence of brain tumors or do people with brain tumors tend to like to use
cell phones? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Michael Elkins did not just drop dead. He dropped to
the
bottom in 250fsw offshore West Palm Beach, while wearing a wet suit and steel
back tanks and stage bottles. He was low on gas and his bungee wings did not
inflate. Because he was low on gas or as a result of the stress of his
situation he was unable to inflate these wings manaully or orally. His body
has never been recovered.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Are you aware of the amount of static lung loading
required
to inflate a constrained gas bladder? Completely aside from the
streamlining issue, do you think that is a wise design feature to constrain
the inflation system on a buoyancy compensator?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3>Neither did Jane Orenstein simply drop dead. She also
dropped to 270fsw after having breathed the wrong deco gas during an
"introductory" training session (the high oxygen was on the right side - that
should be obvious right? Especially since there were no easily visble bottle
markings) while her instructor watched her. When George Irvine, Dan
Volker and Robert Carmichael recovered her body she had her hand locked
around
the inflator of her bungee wings. They were not inflated, needless to
say.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Maybe Charlie McGurr just dropped dead and nobody knows what killed
him
because his buddies, who should have been there to be his last<BR>chance,
were
making sure that they got their money's worth out of their precious little
charter. Instead of accompanying Charlie to the surface<BR>they
chose to
leave him at the worst possible moment of his crisis. Are people who
solo dive just dropping deaed like flies? It's hard to say Greg, when there
is
nobody around, kind of like the tree falling in the forest, to determine what
happened.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And then there was James Hendersen. Who was found dead in Devils Eye
with
both knobs bent off right near the main line and not far from the exit. Jim
was an highly experienced ex fighter pilot and was also a airline
pilot.
Gee, what a waste. He could have waited for someone to dive with him.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Oh, Greg, you surely surely haven't forgotten about Tony Smith. A
real
nice guy with a lot of friends and a very experienced diver. He was
effectively solo when he jumped off the back of a dive boat with his air off,
grossly overweighted, and unfortunately, by himself. In his case the
bungy wings weren't at fault because there was no gas available to inflate
them. His buddies saved him, his deadbody that is, after they had completed
their dive and realized he wasn't around.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And last but not least, you just had to take a cheap shot as us on
the
issue of the USDCT finding broken lines at Wakulla. The broken lines these
guys found were their own mess that their project had installed years prior
and we had left in place. You should be real proud that they followed
your recommendation and ran more line over the existing lines. A propos of
nothing, Henry Kendall was "solo diving" a Mk Cis Lunar rebreather in Wakulla
springs under the aegis of the USDCT when "natural causes" overcame him and
he
was found face down on the bottom of the spring. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Greg, do you have any idea how disconcerting it is to be scootering
along
along the line in a low visibility cave and suddenly find yourself off on
another line? It sounds to me that you need to come down here and tell us all
how the cow ate the cabbage.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bill Mee</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><B></B></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><B></B></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-----Original
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:
</B>Kuiper, Greg <<A
href="mailto:GregKuiper@pa*.co*">GregKuiper@pacific-data.com</A>><BR>&l
t;B>To:
</B><A
href="mailto:'techdiver@aquanaut.com'">'techdiver@aquanaut.com'</A>
<<A
href="mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>><BR><
;B>Date:
</B>Friday, October 22, 1999 9:51 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>RE:
controlling
manners on channel<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>Bill Mee,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>In your email you claim that all the bodies you have
pulled
up have died as a result of the following: "lack of bottle markings,
overweighting, deep air, failed bungee wings or solo diving." Can you
please tell me which bodies lacked the bottle markings, whose bungie
wings failed, who you recovered that was solo diving and who was
overweighted. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>In particular I am curious which agencies you claim
promote
the following concepts:</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Overweighting,</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>lack of bottle markings,</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>solo
diving.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous
would there
not be a large percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping
dead? You may think this a stupid question, but with your comments
about them being so dangerous I am curious as to why. I agree with
you
that they are not streamlined, but if they are responsible for lots of
deaths please inform the list as to which deaths they are responsible
for.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>I would also be interested in why you would tell
someone on
the list not to listen to my opinion.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>And finally how many bodies have you pulled
up?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>This email is not meant to inflame or enrage
you. I am
just curious as to what support you have for the previously metioned
quote.</FONT></P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>Thanks,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Greg
Kuiper</FONT>
</P><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>From:
Bill Mee [<A
href="mailto:wwm@sa*.ne*">mailto:wwm@safari.net</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:42 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>To: Anthony Appleyard</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Cc:
kirvine@sa*.ne*;
techdiver@aquanaut.com; Jim Cobb; bdi;</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>john.r.strohm@BI*.co*; Jr."</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Subject: Re:
controlling manners on channel</FONT> </P><BR><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>Anthony,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>There is nothing funny or polite when you recover the
body
of someone</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>partially eaten by crabs or
bloated
beyond recogntion or foaming and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>bleeding
at the
mouth and ears after having been hauled up from 50 fathoms.</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>It is even less funny when you find that the direct or indirect
cause
of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>death was some idiocy such as lack of
bottle
marking, overweighting, deep</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>air, failed
bungee
wings or solo diving or some other inexcusable nonsense.</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>When you see that such practices are either taught
by or
endorsed by</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>technical dive agencies or
rogue dive
instructors you become even more</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>incensed.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT size=2>There is no language or manners foul enough to convey
my
displeasure with</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>those who encourage and
promote
practices which lead to death and misery.</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Don't you
think for one moment that the relatives of these dead people</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>simply forget about them in the same way that the
"list"
forgets their names</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>and their
lives.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Before you go agreeing with the Dave Suttons, Kevin
Flynns,
Gregg Kuipers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>and other offended people of
the
techno dive world with engorged "killfiles"</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>you stop
and ask yourself if you would rather that you have someone such
as</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>George Irvine speak out on your dead behalf or
you
would prefer some lame</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>and pathetic eulogy
to the
effect that "Why Anthony was a charming lad who</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>died
happily while doing what he enjoyed most".</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>The fact is that George's so called "manners" get
your
attention and those</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>of the others in much
the same
way as good car wreck stops traffic, all the</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>while everyone complains about the traffic delay, but they rubber
neck and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>gawk anyway. Maybe
when they
observe the tragedy they are more careful</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>next time
around.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>And then I have ask myself, what sort of "tough guy"
who
really go and jumps</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>off the back of a
pitching dive
boat into 50 fathoms of dark water is</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>offended by
some internet hyperbole. When I listen to some of the
"epistles</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>of the offended" , which by the way have been pretty
consistent over the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>years in terms of
complaint
content, I am stunned by the pompous indignance</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>of
the outraged. They rarely address the underlying issues, but
instead</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>argue with the nature of the
message
delivery. Why don't these guys ask</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>themselves
and others why Irvine is attacking some perceived stupidity?</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>Instead it is alway something like "he called the
training
agency which said</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>it was ok to breath from
unmarked
bottles dumbfucks" or he said that "the</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>accident scene was like an evidence table at a stupidity
investigation" or</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>"they should provide
free shovels
with Inspriation Rebreathers" or I could</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>go on and
on. I would rather that they take the same time that they</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>invested in the little public complaints to write
out the
names, published</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>on this list, of the
people who
died in the last two years while in engaged</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>in some
form of technical diving, where the cause of death was
preventable.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT size=2>If you or anyone can't figure out why Irvine is
apoplectically pissed off,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>and instead get
your
panties in a wad, then feel free to email me privately</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>and I will be happy to explain to you quite civilly the genesis of
the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>problem. Or of course, you can do as
John Strohm
does and simply ask Irvine</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>politely and
privately
and you will receive a very rational, articulate,</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>deferential and polite answer.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Best wishes,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Bill Mee</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>From:
Anthony Appleyard <mclssaa2@fs*.mt*.um*.ac*.uk*></FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com></FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:48 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>Subject: controlling manners on channel</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2> Someone wrote:-</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>> Irvine
quickly got added to my killfile, and it</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>> amazes
me why anyone listens to his drivel.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2> john.r.strohm@BI*.co* replied (Subject: Re: A
question about who is the</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>mouth):-</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>> Well, I'll tell you, Dave. I listen to
George
because he and his team</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>have</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>> done some absolutely incredible things, with a safety record
that is</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>> several orders of magnitude
better than
anyone else. ...</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2> There are these two sorts of things that
people may
object to on channel:-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2> (A) If in
some matter
of diving, I say that X=2, and Irvine says that X=3,</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>then each may say that the other's opinion is drivel, but they are
both</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>reasoned statements and have a right
to be
heard, whether each is right or</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>wrong. I
know it's
annoying if the two persist in differing, but that's</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>life.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2> (B) Abuse and bad
language, such
as one recent message that contained 2</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>screenfuls of
lavatory-mouthing in uppercase, I pity any women on channel</FONT>
<BR><FONT
size=2>who</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>must wade through that sort of
stuff. To
me, it isn't just the</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>offensiveness,</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>but the bulk for me to wade through before I start
work in
the mornings:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>e.g.</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>today
half of my incoming email was the "A question about who is the
mouth"</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>thread. Does "a stroke" as often used on this list
as an
accusation mean</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>"someone who strokes his
own ego"?
If not, what?, so we know what we are</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>talking about.
Who on this list has heard of netiquette?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2> PLEASE why can't this list temporarily have a
moderator until peoples'</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>manners and
tempers simmer
down? Reiteration and bad language don't get</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>through
on email groups as Tolklang and Virus-L that have a moderator.</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>
.....................................................................</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>Anthony Appleyard, <A
href="http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk"
target=_blank>http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk</A> (sci-fi stories,
3D</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>graphics, software)</FONT>
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size=2>--</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Send mail for the `techdiver'
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