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Madison blue fatatlitiesGreg, this is absolutely some of the worst =
reasoning skills I have ever seen. The only thing two lines will do for =
you is to get you hopelessly tangled. Get real, like every caver is =
going run in a separate line on top of the permanent line. What are you =
smoking? Instead of addressing the real problem here, you have backward =
engineered a laughable solution. The problem here is decision making =
skills and dive skills. It is obvious that these guys got themselves =
into a situation in which they could not figure out how to solve. They =
were unfamiliar with this portion of the cave probably due to the fact =
that there had been a collapse here earlier. Instead of blindly pushing =
through a restriction, they should have made sure the line was properly =
placed so that they could find their way out. They also should have =
been careful not to get tangled or break the line in the first place.=20
As far as double lines go in a cave, why not ask the USDCT how well =
double and triple lines work. That is what they had created in the =
first place, mainly due to complete cluster f**ks. All the original =
line from the first project was left alone by us, so that they could see =
how utterly oblivious they had been diving incorrect mixes with mediocre =
skills.
Chris
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Kuiper, Greg=20
To: 'techdiver@aquanaut.com'=20
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 11:27 AM
Subject: Madison blue fatatlities
List,=20
The recent fatatlities at Madison Blue have made me reflect on cave =
and wreck situations I have been in where if the line had broken I would =
have had similar problems. How many of you have gone through tight =
restrictions in tanninc or fine clay/limestone silt where you couldn't =
see jack squat? I know I have and what a pain it the ass it would be to =
all of a sudden run out of line on the exiting portion of a cave dive. =
I was taught to take my safety reel, tie off to the end of the line and =
go in search of the other end. I can think of many spots I have been in =
where that could be almost impossible due to current blowing the line =
downstream or multiple possible routes through a zero visiblity area. =
It is also a pain in the ass to find broken cave line amongst =
stalagmites in a zero vis environment.
Cave line is tough, but after reading about the recent unfortunate =
accident at Madison Blue and all the broken cave line that USCDT found =
in Wakulla it makes me realize that it might be smart to run your own =
line through certain areas where a broken line could mean life or death.
I don't mean every single tight place where there could be zero =
visibility, but in those areas where there could be multiple paths and =
only one leads to the exit.
An anology that springs to mind is from when I used to rock climb. =
Most American climbers use one thick rope for their climb where many of =
the European climbers I used to know would use two ropes at a time for =
their ascent in case one failed.
In a life threatening environment like caves I don't think it would be =
a bad idea to run a separate line on top of the already existing cave =
line in the appropriate places. The divers at Madison blue might be =
alive today if they had tried that.
Dive safe everybody,=20
Greg Kuiper=20
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Madison blue fatatlities</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Greg, this is absolutely some of the worst reasoning =
skills I=20
have ever seen. The only thing two lines will do for you is to get you=20
hopelessly tangled. Get real, like every caver is going run in a =
separate=20
line on top of the permanent line. What are you smoking? Instead =
of=20
addressing the real problem here, you have backward engineered a =
laughable=20
solution. The problem here is decision making skills and dive=20
skills. It is obvious that these guys got themselves into a =
situation in=20
which they could not figure out how to solve. They were=20
unfamiliar with this portion of the cave probably due to the fact =
that=20
there had been a collapse here earlier. Instead of blindly pushing =
through=20
a restriction, they should have made sure the line was properly =
placed so=20
that they could find their way out. They also should have =
been=20
careful not to get tangled or break the line in the first=20
place. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> As far as double lines go in a =
cave, why=20
not ask the USDCT how well double and triple lines work. That is =
what they=20
had created in the first place, mainly due to complete cluster =
f**ks. All=20
the original line from the first project was left alone by us, so =
that they=20
could see how utterly oblivious they had been diving incorrect =
mixes with=20
mediocre skills.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Chris</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:GregKuiper@pa*.co*"=20
title=3DGregKuiper@pa*.co*>Kuiper, Greg</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:'techdiver@aquanaut.com'"=20
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com>'techdiver@aquanaut.com'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 22,
1999 =
11:27=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Madison blue =
fatatlities</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>List,</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=3DArial =
size=3D2>The recent=20
fatatlities at Madison Blue have made me reflect on cave and wreck =
situations=20
I have been in where if the line had broken I would have had similar=20
problems. How many of you have gone through tight restrictions =
in=20
tanninc or fine clay/limestone silt where you couldn't see jack =
squat? I=20
know I have and what a pain it the ass it would be to all of a sudden =
run out=20
of line on the exiting portion of a cave dive. I was taught to =
take my=20
safety reel, tie off to the end of the line and go in search of the =
other=20
end. I can think of many spots I have been in where that could =
be almost=20
impossible due to current blowing the line downstream or multiple =
possible=20
routes through a zero visiblity area. It is also a pain in the =
ass to=20
find broken cave line amongst stalagmites in a zero vis=20
environment.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cave line is tough, but after reading =
about the=20
recent unfortunate accident at Madison Blue and all the broken cave =
line that=20
USCDT found in Wakulla it makes me realize that it might be smart to =
run your=20
own line through certain areas where a broken line could mean life or=20
death.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't mean every single tight place =
where there=20
could be zero visibility, but in those areas where there could be =
multiple=20
paths and only one leads to the exit.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An anology that springs to mind is from =
when I used=20
to rock climb. Most American climbers use one thick rope for =
their climb=20
where many of the European climbers I used to know would use two ropes =
at a=20
time for their ascent in case one failed.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In a life threatening environment like =
caves I=20
don't think it would be a bad idea to run a separate line on top of =
the=20
already existing cave line in the appropriate places. The divers =
at=20
Madison blue might be alive today if they had tried that.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dive safe everybody,</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Greg Kuiper</FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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