George,

Sorry for taking a while to comment, I'm not online all the time.

Not commenting at all on what killed Charlie.  I personally think he took a
CO2 hit form the exertion on trying to get back to the line.  The air pony,
stupid to have or not, was not a factor.  He did not breathe from it so did
not contribute to his death.  We're trying to weave all possible stupid
things into one and say the combination killed him, I don't think this is
the case.  Regardless if he had, had one take off, it would not have
contributed to his death.  I think we need to focus on what really happened
and not infer that something else would have killed him.  Kind of like a car
accident where the car runs a red light cause the drivers got to be
somewhere.  The car may be out of inspection or need to have a recall item
replaced but was not a contribution to the accident.  The driver did
something stupid by running the red light, that's what caused the accident.
It's like tying to say that because the driver didn't get his car inspected
or have the recalled fuel tank sensor replaced that, that's why he got into
an accident.  Had nothing to do with it.  Now I know some out there are
going to say that the above has nothing to do with the thread and I'm off my
rocker.  We'll I'm doing the same as many well know people on this list,
making a parallel reference to illustrate a point.

Again, I'll say for the record.  I'm not disputing that breathing air at a
depth of 190 is a stupid thing or having your suit inflation double as a
bail out is good to bad.  I'm simply saying that the fact that he had a bail
out of air has nothing to do with it.  Neither does bungie wings, 35 lb. of
lead or steel stages.  Personally at this time of year I would not be using
argon either.  If I were doing the dives you do where I'm in the water for 8
hours, maybe.  But when you're doing a 25 minute bottom time and will be at
a warm stop for the majority of your dive, you need to consider overheating.
The water temps on the surface now in the NE are above 70.  Having argon in
the suit can really be uncomfortable.

Art.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*]
		Sent:	Saturday, July 17, 1999 1:43 PM
		To:	Paltz, Art
		Cc:	Mike Rodriguez; Joel Silverstein;
techdiver@aquanaut.com
		Subject:	Re: Petting the Air Pony: was Re: Doria
Deaths - Let's dive  some air

		Art, these people are doing so many stupid things that
figuring out what
		kills them is like trying to figure out what killed people
at Hiroshima.
		Get real, these people are so stupid, and so full of bull
that not only
		is anything they say ridiculous it is lkely not even true.

		Here are the facts: these idiots have made Nightline and the
front pages
		of several newpapers as well as attracted the attention of
the Coast
		Guard and legislatures, and you want to talk about
"furthering causes". 

		Tell me one thing this guy did that was NOT stupid, and did
not
		contribute to his demise? 

		Here is what needs to happen: the Coast Guard needs to start
charging
		commercialo rates for time wasted dealing with these idiots.
I think I
		need to call them, and make a few recommendatoins. Now that
would be
		"furthering the cause" - the cause of these guys not ruining
it for
		everyone.

		Trying to talk any sense into any of them is impossible -
the obvious
		and the basics are flying right over their heads. By the
way, if Wrolf
		Courtney is out there, could you send me your email address
so we can
		get the Coast Guard accident reports to you for posting on
your website.

		ART, THES ARE NOT DIVE ACCIDENTS, THEY ARE ASSISTED SUICIDE.

		Paltz, Art wrote:
		> 
		> Gotta jump in here.  I have been following this thread
with great interest
		> cause I know the people involved.  I have not heard anyone
who was there say
		> he was breathing the air tank as a travel mix.  This is
just another example
		> of people assuming and making statements to further the
cause or just jump
		> in the band wagon.  Is using air as a travel mix stupid
when you've got a
		> 17% back mix?  Yes it is.  Was it used, I think not!
		> 
		> Art.
		> 
		>                 -----Original Message-----
		>                 From:   Mike Rodriguez
[mailto:mikey@ma*.co*]
		>                 Sent:   Monday, August 16, 1999 11:39 PM
		>                 To:     Joel Silverstein
		>                 Cc:     techdiver@aquanaut.com
		>                 Subject:        Re: Petting the Air Pony:
was Re: Doria
		> Deaths - Let's dive  some air
		> 
		>                 At 07:50 PM 8/16/99 -0400, Joel
Silverstein wrote:
		> 
		>                 Hello Joel,
		> 
		>                 >That's not it -- they just dont
understand that its not
		> needed. They dont
		>                 >understand partial pressures, they dont
understand that you
		> dont need a
		>                 >hypoxix mix for a 250 fsw dive,
		> 
		>                 [SNIP]
		> 
		>                 Am I missing something here?  A normoxic
mix at 250 fsw has
		> a
		>                 PO2 of 1.8 AtA.  At 19.2% O2, the PO2 is
1.6 AtA and at
		> 16.9%
		>                 it's 1.4 AtA.  To dive safely at 250 fsw,
a hypoxic mix at
		> no
		>                 more than 16.9% O2 should be used.
		> 
		>                 Now, 16.9% O2 is perfectly breathable all
the way from the
		> surface
		>                 to the bottom, of course, and reaches a
normoxic PO2 just a
		> few
		>                 feet below the surface so a travel mix is
not needed and
		> doesn't
		>                 makes sense on this dive, but the mix
*does* have to be
		> hypoxic
		>                 to be safe.
		> 
		>                 -Mike Rodriguez
		>                 <mikey@ma*.co*>
		> 
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