Art, I totally disagree: I say that the stroke rig, stroke operation,
stroke buddy work, and stroke mindset, AS EVIDENCED BY the air pony and
the rest, all contibuted to the guy's death. If you put enough CRAP on a
diver, of course he has trouble dealing wtih the diving part, and then
it would make perfect sense for him to be so disadvantaged by his STROKE
RIG, that he had a CO2 hit trying to deal with it, even if he did not
breathe the wrong gas THIS TIME.

Bondage wings, air ponies, steel stages, 80/20, steel with wetsuits,
overweighting, bullshit "trimix" ( like 30% helium which does nothing) ,
consoles, multiple computers, helmets, scooter cages, cobra guards, hand
held lights, square lights, hoses everywhere, stuffed hoses, independent
doubles, "tec" bc's, etc all are nothing more than the genetic material
of stupidity.

When somebody gets killed doing everything wrong, who cares which piece
of stroke gear he was last fumbling with, or which flapping hose slowed
him down the most, which improperly marked bottle he breathed out of,
which buddy left him, which one of his bondage wing inflators he was
honking on, which steel stage bottle sunk him the fastest, or which
stupid idea from which training agency last passed through his dying
mind. 

Dead is dead, and New England wreck diving is being conducted in a
manner that is producing more dead than anything outside of deep air
diving or solo rebreather diving.

It needs to stop, and the way to get it to stop is to stop listening to
boat monkees, dive industry sheep, training agency savants,
self-proclaimed brass polishers ( trash collectors) and start listening
to the guys who make sense and have the track record to go with it who
do not have any financial stake in what is going on here.

I can not believe that the obvious is so hard to see. It is obvious that
what is going on here is criminal, and it is obvious where it is coming
from, and it is obvious that the whole thing is wrong. The part that
only PT Barnum ever understood is how upscale New York players can let
boat monkess tell them how to dive. I can see it with the goobers in
Virginia or Florida, but New York?

Paltz, Art wrote:
> 
> George,
> 
> Sorry for taking a while to comment, I'm not online all the time.
> 
> Not commenting at all on what killed Charlie.  I personally think he took a
> CO2 hit form the exertion on trying to get back to the line.  The air pony,
> stupid to have or not, was not a factor.  He did not breathe from it so did
> not contribute to his death.  We're trying to weave all possible stupid
> things into one and say the combination killed him, I don't think this is
> the case.  Regardless if he had, had one take off, it would not have
> contributed to his death.  I think we need to focus on what really happened
> and not infer that something else would have killed him.  Kind of like a car
> accident where the car runs a red light cause the drivers got to be
> somewhere.  The car may be out of inspection or need to have a recall item
> replaced but was not a contribution to the accident.  The driver did
> something stupid by running the red light, that's what caused the accident.
> It's like tying to say that because the driver didn't get his car inspected
> or have the recalled fuel tank sensor replaced that, that's why he got into
> an accident.  Had nothing to do with it.  Now I know some out there are
> going to say that the above has nothing to do with the thread and I'm off my
> rocker.  We'll I'm doing the same as many well know people on this list,
> making a parallel reference to illustrate a point.
> 
> Again, I'll say for the record.  I'm not disputing that breathing air at a
> depth of 190 is a stupid thing or having your suit inflation double as a
> bail out is good to bad.  I'm simply saying that the fact that he had a bail
> out of air has nothing to do with it.  Neither does bungie wings, 35 lb. of
> lead or steel stages.  Personally at this time of year I would not be using
> argon either.  If I were doing the dives you do where I'm in the water for 8
> hours, maybe.  But when you're doing a 25 minute bottom time and will be at
> a warm stop for the majority of your dive, you need to consider overheating.
> The water temps on the surface now in the NE are above 70.  Having argon in
> the suit can really be uncomfortable.
> 
> Art.
> 
>                 -----Original Message-----
>                 From:   kirvine@sa*.ne* [mailto:kirvine@sa*.ne*]
>                 Sent:   Saturday, July 17, 1999 1:43 PM
>                 To:     Paltz, Art
>                 Cc:     Mike Rodriguez; Joel Silverstein;
> techdiver@aquanaut.com
>                 Subject:        Re: Petting the Air Pony: was Re: Doria
> Deaths - Let's dive  some air
> 
>                 Art, these people are doing so many stupid things that
> figuring out what
>                 kills them is like trying to figure out what killed people
> at Hiroshima.
>                 Get real, these people are so stupid, and so full of bull
> that not only
>                 is anything they say ridiculous it is lkely not even true.
> 
>                 Here are the facts: these idiots have made Nightline and the
> front pages
>                 of several newpapers as well as attracted the attention of
> the Coast
>                 Guard and legislatures, and you want to talk about
> "furthering causes".
> 
>                 Tell me one thing this guy did that was NOT stupid, and did
> not
>                 contribute to his demise?
> 
>                 Here is what needs to happen: the Coast Guard needs to start
> charging
>                 commercialo rates for time wasted dealing with these idiots.
> I think I
>                 need to call them, and make a few recommendatoins. Now that
> would be
>                 "furthering the cause" - the cause of these guys not ruining
> it for
>                 everyone.
> 
>                 Trying to talk any sense into any of them is impossible -
> the obvious
>                 and the basics are flying right over their heads. By the
> way, if Wrolf
>                 Courtney is out there, could you send me your email address
> so we can
>                 get the Coast Guard accident reports to you for posting on
> your website.
> 
>                 ART, THES ARE NOT DIVE ACCIDENTS, THEY ARE ASSISTED SUICIDE.
> 
>                 Paltz, Art wrote:
>                 >
>                 > Gotta jump in here.  I have been following this thread
> with great interest
>                 > cause I know the people involved.  I have not heard anyone
> who was there say
>                 > he was breathing the air tank as a travel mix.  This is
> just another example
>                 > of people assuming and making statements to further the
> cause or just jump
>                 > in the band wagon.  Is using air as a travel mix stupid
> when you've got a
>                 > 17% back mix?  Yes it is.  Was it used, I think not!
>                 >
>                 > Art.
>                 >
>                 >                 -----Original Message-----
>                 >                 From:   Mike Rodriguez
> [mailto:mikey@ma*.co*]
>                 >                 Sent:   Monday, August 16, 1999 11:39 PM
>                 >                 To:     Joel Silverstein
>                 >                 Cc:     techdiver@aquanaut.com
>                 >                 Subject:        Re: Petting the Air Pony:
> was Re: Doria
>                 > Deaths - Let's dive  some air
>                 >
>                 >                 At 07:50 PM 8/16/99 -0400, Joel
> Silverstein wrote:
>                 >
>                 >                 Hello Joel,
>                 >
>                 >                 >That's not it -- they just dont
> understand that its not
>                 > needed. They dont
>                 >                 >understand partial pressures, they dont
> understand that you
>                 > dont need a
>                 >                 >hypoxix mix for a 250 fsw dive,
>                 >
>                 >                 [SNIP]
>                 >
>                 >                 Am I missing something here?  A normoxic
> mix at 250 fsw has
>                 > a
>                 >                 PO2 of 1.8 AtA.  At 19.2% O2, the PO2 is
> 1.6 AtA and at
>                 > 16.9%
>                 >                 it's 1.4 AtA.  To dive safely at 250 fsw,
> a hypoxic mix at
>                 > no
>                 >                 more than 16.9% O2 should be used.
>                 >
>                 >                 Now, 16.9% O2 is perfectly breathable all
> the way from the
>                 > surface
>                 >                 to the bottom, of course, and reaches a
> normoxic PO2 just a
>                 > few
>                 >                 feet below the surface so a travel mix is
> not needed and
>                 > doesn't
>                 >                 makes sense on this dive, but the mix
> *does* have to be
>                 > hypoxic
>                 >                 to be safe.
>                 >
>                 >                 -Mike Rodriguez
>                 >                 <mikey@ma*.co*>
>                 >
>                 >                 --
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