John,

What is the preoccupation with George Irvine? He hasn't killed anybody. He
is not the problem with diving nor is his behavior in any way the issue
here.. The issue is the epidemic of death's on the Andrea Doria and
everywhere else over the last I don't know how many years.

You are obviously a thoughtful guy who has probably confronted life and
death situations many times throughout your career.  You cannot be satified
with what is happening here and you must be able to see the problem. The
real problem is that where the death's are occuring is where the old
attitudes of personal preference and "your ok, I'm ok" prevails. The most
basic concepts in diving have been ignored or forgotten (like dive with a
buddy) in this new world of much riskier so called "technical diving".

Look and review these accidents and learn something from this. We know from
past fatal accidents that diving solo, diving overweighted, diving with
unmarked gas mixes and narcotic gases, diving with poor health or pfos is a
formula for death, yet we this this same mo being repeated over and over
again.  This very same handprint is all over each and every one of these
recent deaths.  Don't you see this?

Instead you want to focus on George Irvine as if his actions and words are
the real problem.  Whenever these accidents happen and George points out the
problem we always get the same wave of offended criticism, not about the
tragedy but about what a mean guy George is.

Do you recall the Rob Palmer tragedy of several years ago when all of the
righteous and pompous indignation spewed from the mouths of the TDI
organization because George had the temerity to suggest that Rob was stupid
for attempting deep air dives at Hurgada? Come to find out that this is
exactly what he was doing.

I haven't observed much output from you on this list excepting your question
about why not inflate your wings with the drysuit argon. Did George publicly
humiliate you for asking this question?  Did we question your "puzzling"
motives for posing this rather "curious" not very well thought out question?


I would like to hear your opinion about these Doria deaths and any of the
countless other deaths that we have been witness to over the years.  I also
challenge you to get on this list and tell us why discussing George Irvine
is more important than knowing why another human being has become a
statistic.


Best Regards,

Bill Mee

-----Original Message-----
From: jccalvin <jccalvin@pa*.ne*>
To: tgunther@co*.co* <tgunther@co*.co*>; techdiver
<techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Doria Count?


>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tgunther@co*.co* <tgunther@co*.co*>
>To: techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 7:44 AM
>Subject: Re: Doria Count?
>
>
>>George Irvine:
>>
>>The reputation of the WKPP in the industry is well established.   Your
>>professional  record is beyond dispute.    But like others, I find myself
>>wondering why such ingenue behaviour is necessary when recounting
>unfortunate
>>deaths within the community?    Is it really necessary to scurry around
>like a
>>little June Beetle that takes advantage of all the carnage around itself?
>Is
>>such insolent chest-beating truly important in situations like this.....
>
>Greetings:
>
>As a student of technical diving (two years of training and experience AND
>no intent to dive the Doria soon) I am compelled to support Mr. Gunther's
>posting.  Reading Mr. Irvine's posts and getting past the ODD presentation
>is a significant challenge.  I always read the posts carefully and having
>discarded the extraneous chatter, carefully evaluate (and usually follow)
>the diving advise.
>
>I must say I am rather puzzled by Mr. Irvine's presentation style.  I spent
>two tours in Vietnam working with Special Forces and a few seals on
>intelligence operations and eight years as a police officer.  I have never
>encountered anyone who was really good at a dangerous and intellectually
>demanding activity (as Mr. Irvine obviously is) who communicates with his
>particular approach.  They were almost always low-key and friendly
(assuming
>you were not one of there targets :>).  Generally people who talk like this
>would really like to be accepted as one of the group but are clearly not
>qualified.  As Mr. Irvine's qualifications are not questionable the puzzle
>remains.
>
>regards,
>
>John.
>
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