Bill,

Thank you for your rational response!  (I really didn't expect one from 
George!)  In regards to feeling "put down"....I DON'T since I've never
been blasted for any comments I've made on this list except for this last
one (and that I expected!!).  The put down comment was just an observation
I have made regarding other people's contributions to the list.  And again
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT DIR METHODOLOGY or obvious stupidity such as the 
latest rash of technical dive fatalities.

Case in point is that anytime Rich Pyle mentions his experience with the
CisLunar RB, it's readily dismissed as not relevant due to it's use is non
cave related, or that he is just one of Stone's puppets.  I feel this is
unfortunate and that Rich has a lot of valuable info he could contribute
to this list, but the fact he is not WKPP and DIR, then he is viewed as a
Bozo by that organization.

I admit, mentioning Wolov's death was somewhat a low blow and probably did
not help me get my point across, but I still have to wonder that had he 
not
been a friend to many people on Techdiver, whether or not his accident 
would
have been used as an more of an example of stupidity.

Now....getting to the real point -Recognition of WKPP's accomplishments-.
First of all, I can understand how you guys can be upset by the "so 
called"
recognition of Stone's group but as far as I can see....THEY HAVE NO
ACCOMPLISHMENTS!!!!  So how can they steal recognition???  Sure, they have
a presence in periodicals and journals, but that just describes their 
PLANS,
NOT ACCOMPLISHMENTS.  You guys feel they will eventually fall on their 
face
and "do nothing" so what are you really worried about?  In business, 
performance is based largely on results, not plans!  

If it is the publicity you people seek, go out and PUBLISH what you have
accomplished (not just in Techdiver) but in the same journals and 
periodicals.
Results always speak louder than plans (which are just words).

The whole point of my thread is in response to the following quote from 
George:

> We hold the record, we have always held the record at
>depth, and we have four records in excess of Islers' best effort ever
>only 200 feet deeper and a freaking mile further. 
>
>  I get real sick of the fact that nobody ever seems to want to
>recognize this, or recongize that NOBODY on this planet does it deep and
>long like us, and nobady but us has done it deep, long, and on SCUBA as
>well as rebreather. We have all of those records.....

So, WHY does NOBODY want to recognize this????  There has to be a reason!!
ATTENTION GEORGE!!!! -This_ is what I refer to as "chest beating", not 
your
excellent dive reports which are factual and to the point!!-

AND the following:

> You know the story, I know the story , anyone in the know knows the
>story, but the raging cast of blithering idiots in diving out there does
>not, and I am just plain sick of it, and sick of reading the slobering
>crap that goes with it. Next we will hear the Bill Stone has the record
>when he goes to Wakulla and swims around the basin with his rebreather.

If "everyone in the know" knows the story, then what else really matters?
They are the only one's who will appreciate the accomplishments for what 
they are....NOT the blithering idiots!!

If it is just the "blithering idiots in diving" that don't know, who 
cares??
What difference does it make???  If you want John Q. Public to be aware 
you
need to get the info out in the mainstream so they can see it.

George can call me an asshole, a piece of shit, and any other name he can 
think of.....I'm a big boy, I can handle it.  What he CAN'T tell me is 
that
I am wrong about what I have said above!!!  If you guys want recognition, 
you won't get it with oversized egos and arrogance.....just publish the
facts and let the public decide from there!

Al

>Alan,
>
>I am sorry that you feel "put down".   Apparently you miss the point of G's
>remarks. While the announcement of Isler's dive was intriguing, it was
>rather incorrect to suggest this was a record, strictly to be on the up and
>up.
>
>As you correctly pointed out, the WKPP does not set out to set records.
>These happen as an unintended by product of getting the mission
>accomplished.  When G refers to "know nothings" and "do nothings", generally
>he is being kind to the object of his criticism. George as well as all of
>the members of the WKPP are equally offended by the recognition allotted B.
>Stone and the USDCT, when in fact they have accomplished nothing.  This
>"stolen" recognition has resulted in the displacement of our project from
>Wakulla Springs.
>
>And another thing.  Just look at the staggering incompetence, ingnorance and
>blithering stupidity which pervade socalled "technical diving" and stare in
>horror at the wake of death this disaster has spawned.  The folks who purvey
>the misinformation which underlies most if not all of these tragedies I
>would certainly paint with the "know nothing", "do nothing" descriptor.
>
>It is very disingenuous to suggest that we apply another standard to our
>friends, such as the late Rob Wolov.  In fact if anything we apply a harsher
>standard. Within the WKPP enforcement of our standards comes primarily
>through peer pressure and the mentoring process.  Ask anyone who has dived
>with our project.  Outside of the project we do not and cannot monitor the
>activities of all members. We also understand that that the addiction of
>"personal preference" is sometimes so strong that people revert to their old
>unsafe ways and means when they are outside of our aegis. That's life.
>People make judgmental errors and these can cost you your life. Within the
>WKPP we try to instill a sense of continuity which transcends just the
>project dives and makes people apply the same metric all the time, wherever
>they are.
>
>You get to the point where you try to think ahead and plot out every future
>consequence of your actions, before getting in the water.  The Director is
>fanatic about this. He will never just say "let's go dive" especially when
>it is in the ocean, which is far more dangerous than cave diving because of
>all of the uncontrollable variable. You have to go through the checklist and
>decide when and when not to dive after you have gotten past rule number one.
>
>You need to get "sick" of the fatalities and the practices which contribute
>to them. There is nothing polite about death.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alan D. Secor <secor@bt*.ib*.co*>
>To: kirvine@sa*.ne* <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
>Cc: 100420.252@co*.co* <100420.252@co*.co*>; techdiver
><techdiver@aquanaut.com>
>Date: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 12:59 PM
>Subject: Re: The Record Dive
>
>
>>George, I don't think anyone refuses to recognize your records....what
>>we do get "sick" of is the fact that you and your group constantly
>>throws it in our face while beating your chests and putting everyone else
>>down!
>>
>>How many times have you put someone down, saying they are "know nothings"
>>and "do nothings", since YOU are the one who does it deeper, further,
>>better, etc...than anyone else.  You are the ONE who holds the "end of the
>>line"!!!
>>
>>What I say is BFD!!!  Sure, you've got the experience but that doesn't
>>mean
>>that people that don't have the "same" experience as you are worthless and
>>have nothing to contribute!  You and your group are always first to jump
>>on
>>dive casualities, labeling the diver as a STROKE and saying they weren't
>>DIR!!!  Well....you seem awful quiet about your buddy Rob Wolov.  Is that
>>because he was one of the "anointed ones" and therefore could not have
>>possibly been at fault for his accident???  (This comment is in no way
>>meant
>>to put Rob down....I know we all feel sad about the loss).
>>
>>Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that, sure, we all know you hold all the
>>records....it's just that if you want to be recognized and praised, try
>>the cotton treatment to your mouth and show a little humility and maybe
>>you will start to get the recognition you seek and deserve!!
>>
>>Al
>>
>>>Reinhard, the problem is not with Isler, he knows the score, as do
>>>you, the problem is with the consistent and persistent bullshit out of
>>>eveyone else. We hold the record, we have always held the record at
>>>depth, and we have four records in excess of Islers' best effort ever
>>>only 200 feet deeper and a freaking mile further.
>>>
>>>  I get real sick of the fact that nobody ever seems to want to
>>>recognize this, or recongize that NOBODY on this planet does it deep and
>>>long like us, and nobady but us has done it deep, long, and on SCUBA as
>>>well as rebreather. We have all of those records, and as you know, Isler
>>>is the one who got me to dive the freaking RMV driven rebreather in the
>>>first place, and I got him to use my scooter.
>>>
>>> You know the story, I know the story , anyone in the know knows the
>>>story, but the raging cast of blithering idiots in diving out there does
>>>not, and I am just plain sick of it, and sick of reading the slobering
>>>crap that goes with it. Next we will hear the Bill Stone has the record
>>>when he goes to Wakulla and swims around the basin with his rebreather.
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Alan D. Secor
>>e-mail: secor@bt*.ib*.co*
>>
>>
>>--
>>Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>
>
>

--
Alan D. Secor
e-mail: secor@bt*.ib*.co*


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