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> water training as part of every tech type class, with the exception of basic > nitrox right?. anything less is a violation of standards by the instructor, > isn't it?? . Could well be. However as you cannot guarantee they will follow the standards, again I say this is why the student has to have a role and responsibility (for better OR worse) in determining if they are ready for whatever the dive is. > You make a damaging admission here Mike, in your use of the term diver. I > am in total agreement with you, when the instructional setting is removed from > the equation Mike. Hell maybe I'm just too independent, I just don't believe in transferring all that responsibility to an instructor. He doesn't make enuf to make it worthwhile :-) And I simply don't get off on the idea of abandoning my life to the care of someone else. I'd still like to have a say in it. > But thats not what we were discussing. We were discussing students and > instructors. Dan Volker has pointed out, in the USA and elsewhere I suspect, > the instructor is assumed to be all knowing. Its wise to shield yourself > against incompetence with self education, but its not realistic to expect that > all others will do the same successfully. But it is realistic to promote the idea. As I said to Dan, people have a way of living up to, or DOWN to, the expectations you set for them. If we proclaim its "ok" to be helpless, they will be that and feel good about it. If we instead proclaim that (to plagarize Rich Pyle) "every time you go under water you take your butt in your own hands", then ya know more and more people MIGHT start acting that way. > You educate them Mike. Thats why its called Instruction, and it works when > its done right. You seem to be well aware of what you are doing, why is that? > Didn't the various instructors you've had have something to do with that?? Actually I had that attitude from the beginning, in fact my OW1 instructor was rather mediocre. Adequate certainly, but does not compare to some stellar instructors I have found since. Going from OW1 I went straight to AOW a year and zero dives later. I had moved to grad school, talked to the AOW instructor, did one dive with him, and embarassed myself royally on the shallow water eval dive. So I joined a club and dove at least once per week with the club (outside the class) so I'd have water time to practice the skills I needed for the course. Of course this is the same attitude that Jammer thinks makes me such a bad apprentice, but I quickly became a tough student to kill. Its worked for me, I'll stick with it. > Okay Okay i concede the example thing, please no fred, no fred........ Fred... Fred.... Ok, if the partial pressure of students in the class...... :-) > Thats outside the box Mike. Hell Al, I like being outside the box :-) > I am not saying instructors can save all the idiots from themselves good. that's why I am saying we need more tools in the fight against accidents. Raising the expectation bar for all divers is one of them IMO. > I don't mean to minimize the role of the student, but I am afraid of > minimizing the role of the instructor. If we can agree not to do both I can > live with it. Looking at this as the mouse and the trap, I have been pushing the mouse so hard because I think we have totally been focusing on the trap (and removing them all). I _do_ think if the mice are smart enuf, you don't have to worry about the traps. And no, they won't ever ALL be smart enuf, but if a lot of them improve that can't be a bad thing. Hey, its not fun or popular to take an accident and find faults with someone who paid for those faults with their life, regardless of how much those faults did or did not contribute to the overall accident, but who are we helping by ignoring them? The people to help are the ones who are still here, still diving and possibly doing the same things that led or contributed to accidents that have already occured. Telling them it is always the fault of the instructor or the gear doesn't tell them alot. It gives them a false sense of security, that they can mail order DIR gear, find an approved instructor and nothing will ever happen to them. Good start as that may be, its not enuf if they aren't thinking. We have to reverse this trend of telling divers its so safe they don't have to think. There is NOTHING good to come out of following that path. I'm simply arguing that point all. Not to the illegitimacy of other points, just on its own merits. Regards, Mike -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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