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Mike writes: <<<Also how is an instructor supposed to always be able to ferret out <<<every student who is lying, or simply self-deluded? Why with the shallow water test dive Mike. You have read the various standards availible on the web havent you? all call for shallow water confined water training as part of every tech type class, with the exception of basic nitrox right?. anything less is a violation of standards by the instructor, isn't it?? . <<, I might be willing to say they <<,are equally liable, but IMO certainly no one is more at fault <<than the diver who puts themselves so far beyong their abilities. You make a damaging admission here Mike, in your use of the term diver. I am in total agreement with you, when the instructional setting is removed from the equation Mike. But thats not what we were discussing. We were discussing students and instructors. Dan Volker has pointed out, in the USA and elsewhere I suspect, the instructor is assumed to be all knowing. Its wise to shield yourself against incompetence with self education, but its not realistic to expect that all others will do the same successfully. <<<f they student can't make decisions inside class for themself, <<<how do you expect them to make them on their own, when NO ONE <<<except themselves is there to protect them? You educate them Mike. Thats why its called Instruction, and it works when its done right. You seem to be well aware of what you are doing, why is that? Didn't the various instructors you've had have something to do with that?? <<,I disagree. (where's Fred we can fight over fractions and percentages..) Okay Okay i concede the example thing, please no fred, no fred........ <<<Wrong. I could arrange for a two stage mix dive.............<snip> Thats outside the box Mike. I am not saying instructors can save all the idiots from themselves, but they should be able to save the idiots they deal with in training. If you want to commit suicide you'll find a way. < and I am not saying the homebrew DIY'ers are necessarily committing suicide, I would have to know you before I'd say that, some are and some ain't.> <<,I'm not saying the instructor has no role. I am saying we are ignoring <<<the very important role of the student. Why is everyone so afraid of this? I don't mean to minimize the role of the student, but I am afraid of minimizing the role of the instructor. If we can agree not to do both I can live with it. <<< Anything killing lobster without making them useful eats needs to be stopped. can we agree on that? :-) Personally I am the fish nerd type, I have never taken a lobster. I don't mind others doing what they love, but I don't like to see such useless death. later, al marvelli -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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