And again, Will, we thank you for all of your contributions.

Sincerely, GFY,
Jess

----------
> From: William M. Smithers <will@tr*.co*>
> To: Katherine V. Irvine <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
> Cc: dmackay@cg*.wa*.ca*; cavers@ca*.co*; techdiver
<techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> Subject: Re: re inspriation death
> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 9:38 AM
> 
> 
> On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Katherine V. Irvine wrote:
> 
> > Dan, I have owned rebreathers for more than three years,not one. Try
> > flying a Falcon jet after spraying the instument panel with a hose.
Dunk
> > your Mercedes in water and run into a wall at 50 MPH to test the
> > airbags, and if you can swim in 5 knots of current , I will meet you at
> > Macy's. Like you said, you don't do it, I do.
> > 
> > Unlike the rest of the bser's out there, I do not talk about something
> > until AFTER I do it. I did not talk about my rebeather diving until I
> > already had the record for cave with one, and you did not see me saying
> > I would go 18,000 feet in a cave, or set any records, but you did see
> > Bill Stone put that in writing. 
> > 
> > The difference bwteen me, and the "community" is simple - it is the
> > difference between the real thing and bullshit. I am the real thing,
and
> > I can say that with impunity. I know what I am talking about , and the
> > reason none of you can see that is that what I do is so far off your
> > radar scope that it is not immaginable.
> >
> 
> OK, I've had enough fun - you WKPPer's walk around with
> a big red hot botton on your backs marked "push me", and
> sometimes, it's fun to push it to watch the limbs jerk
> and the bile spew, but it's really boring to hear
> the same thing, endlessly.  So until you guys figure
> out that walking around with hot buttons exposed isn't cool, 
> I'm adding an "Irvine" filter to my mail reader, as 
> well as an Armantrout and Mee filter.
> 
> Later,
> 
> -Will
> 
>  
> > 
> > 
> > Dan MacKay wrote:
> > > 
> > > While I have to agree to a large degree with the current state of the
art in
> > > ccr's, I must take certain umbrage with the broad brush that you are
> > > painting all mission critical, real-time control electronics systems.
> > > 
> > > Befor I get branded a heritic here let me say that I have not used a
rb. I
> > > have been following the development of them with some interest. I
would not
> > > use a ccr under any circumstances. I would however use an oc rb if
the type
> > > of diving I was doing would warrant it.
> > > 
> > > I must remind the readers on this list of the plethora of high
reliability
> > > hardware/software that are common place and people rely on without
question
> > > today. Quite a few large aircraft, contrary to popular misconception,
cannot
> > > be flown without electronics. When crashes occur they often produce
high
> > > mortality rates. Does this stop you from flying? No. Why? The
aviation
> > > industry has done a marvellous job of reducing the risk of failure to
an
> > > acceptable level. The key here is acceptable level.
> > > 
> > > Other examples. Modern cars: braking systems, airbags. All of the
space
> > > shuttles. The Hubble space telescope. Real time control systems in
subways.
> > > Rail controls. Process instrumentation for critical industrial
control.
> > > Robotics, etc.. I could go on an on.
> > > 
> > > Like I stated earlier, I do share your jaundice of ccr's in their
current
> > > form and wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. On the other hand I
recall
> > > Geoge Ivine stating categorically just a few short months ago(or
perhaps a
> > > year) that he was of the same opinion of any rebreather. Now the only
way
> > > you would get his from him would be to pry it from his cold dead
hands.
> > > 
> > > Once again the parallel here is that Geoge has confidence in his
rebreather.
> > > It is a high reliablility piece of kit in which he has had a fair
amount of
> > > input into its design and testing. I do believe that eventually ccr's
will
> > > carry an acceptable level of risk. Not now, but unlike you I would
hardly
> > > say never.
> > > 
> > > I think the number one problem you nailed dead on. And that is stated
> > > completely in the third paragraph of your message. Way too many
> > > inexperienced people have access to these toys today. I infer the
lack of
> > > experience here rather than the lack of qualifications here simply
because I
> > > know quite a few 'qualified' people that I personally would not take
> > > snorkelling.
> > > 
> > > Just incase you were wondering what kind of diving I do - I am one of
the
> > > frozen chosen up here in the north. (Canada) I dive year round in
water
> > > temperatures that vary from 32 to 72. Normally do trimix up to 250',
wreck
> > > diving in a fair current 3-5 knots depending on the day. I have about
500
> > > dives in this kind of environment and even in my estimation it is a
tough
> > > slog sometimes.
> > > 
> > > You bring up so many valid points, just don't completly right off a
> > > technology because it is as immature as some of the people using it.
> > > 
> > > Dan MacKay.
> > > 
> > > Katherine V. Irvine wrote:
> > > 
> > > > John, thanks for the report. Obviously you are not part of the
"Code
> > > > OF Silence" on the topic or electronic rebreathers. Obviously you
know
> > > > better than to go for the usual "diver error" lie that gets used as
an
> > > > excuse every time. The error is using an electronic rb or listening
to
> > > > people who have no clue when betting your life, and I can think of
one
> > > > very annoying such person here in the States to whom reality is but
a
> > > > vague notion to be delt with later. My bet is he will "tripple"
anything
> > > > you are seeing with the Inspiration.
> > > >
> > > >   The death rate speaks for itself. However, my opinion , and my
opinion
> > > > menas a lot since I do use rebreathers more successfully than
anyone in
> > > > history, is that the problems we are seeing with these things are
not
> > > > idiosyncratic to any one brand - they are all subject to the laws
of
> > > > physics and the realities of diving: in other words, they don't
work,
> > > > meaning that even when they do work they do not, and when they do
not,
> > > > the kill you. No warning, just dead.
> > > >
> > > >   This stuff needs to slow down now. I do not know about the UK,
but in
> > > > the US the wannabeees who are clammoring to get on the ccr train
are
> > > > those who could not dive in a swimming pool with doubles, or other
> > > > heroes who desperately want to level the palying field with those
of us
> > > > who have done what it takes to be the best. It ain't happening.
They
> > > > will all end up dead.
> > > >
> > > >   Keep bringing out the truth on this stuff and maybe we can save
some
> > > > lives - not the idiots' here, but real people like your friends
there in
> > > > the UK. What we have here are dumpster diving vagrants and scumbags
with
> > > > long track recods of failure and stupidy who are on the bandwagon.
> > > > Luckily, most of these mutants can't afford a scuba tank, but then
we do
> > > > have some real tough guy wannabees out there who have made some
money
> > > > and now want to prove something by jumping into the ring wiht th3e
Big
> > > > Boys. All they will do is prove me right  while dying in a fear
choked
> > > > cluster---, which a few of them have earned for aht they have done
to us
> > > > and others, and for the massive disservice they are doing the
sport, and
> > > > for the disgrace they are making of our hard work.
> > > >
> > > >   We will see a lot more of this, John, until Rule Numbers One and
Two
> > > > get adhered to by more people out there. You guys all have to learn
to
> > > > call a liar a liar, and I will do it for all of you  until you
develop
> > > > the balls to do it yourselves. I have good air cover as many of you
have
> > > > already discovered.
> > > >
> > > >   Electrocic RB's are death traps - do not belong in caves or
wrecks,
> > > > and do not belong in tech or rec diving, and should not be pushed
and
> > > > peddled to the masses, or used by the unsuspecting, or allowed in
the
> > > > hands of liars and scumbags who will let you get killed and call it
your
> > > > fault, or blame it on your diabetes.
> > > >
> > > >   Time to look at the track records and see who is right.
> > 
> > 
> > 
--
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