Will,
Maybe its time for you to filter out the entire list :-)
Have you considered rec.scuba or Rodales???
Dan Volker

-----Original Message-----
From: William M. Smithers <will@tr*.co*>
To: Katherine V. Irvine <kirvine@sa*.ne*>
Cc: dmackay@cg*.wa*.ca* <dmackay@cg*.wa*.ca*>; cavers@ca*.co*
<cavers@ca*.co*>; techdiver <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 29, 1998 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: re inspriation death



>
>On Wed, 29 Jul 1998, Katherine V. Irvine wrote:
>
>> Dan, I have owned rebreathers for more than three years,not one. Try
>> flying a Falcon jet after spraying the instument panel with a hose. Dunk
>> your Mercedes in water and run into a wall at 50 MPH to test the
>> airbags, and if you can swim in 5 knots of current , I will meet you at
>> Macy's. Like you said, you don't do it, I do.
>>
>> Unlike the rest of the bser's out there, I do not talk about something
>> until AFTER I do it. I did not talk about my rebeather diving until I
>> already had the record for cave with one, and you did not see me saying
>> I would go 18,000 feet in a cave, or set any records, but you did see
>> Bill Stone put that in writing.
>>
>> The difference bwteen me, and the "community" is simple - it is the
>> difference between the real thing and bullshit. I am the real thing, and
>> I can say that with impunity. I know what I am talking about , and the
>> reason none of you can see that is that what I do is so far off your
>> radar scope that it is not immaginable.
>>
>
>OK, I've had enough fun - you WKPPer's walk around with
>a big red hot botton on your backs marked "push me", and
>sometimes, it's fun to push it to watch the limbs jerk
>and the bile spew, but it's really boring to hear
>the same thing, endlessly.  So until you guys figure
>out that walking around with hot buttons exposed isn't cool,
>I'm adding an "Irvine" filter to my mail reader, as
>well as an Armantrout and Mee filter.
>
>Later,
>
>-Will
>
>
>>
>>
>> Dan MacKay wrote:
>> >
>> > While I have to agree to a large degree with the current state of the
art in
>> > ccr's, I must take certain umbrage with the broad brush that you are
>> > painting all mission critical, real-time control electronics systems.
>> >
>> > Befor I get branded a heritic here let me say that I have not used a
rb. I
>> > have been following the development of them with some interest. I would
not
>> > use a ccr under any circumstances. I would however use an oc rb if the
type
>> > of diving I was doing would warrant it.
>> >
>> > I must remind the readers on this list of the plethora of high
reliability
>> > hardware/software that are common place and people rely on without
question
>> > today. Quite a few large aircraft, contrary to popular misconception,
cannot
>> > be flown without electronics. When crashes occur they often produce
high
>> > mortality rates. Does this stop you from flying? No. Why? The aviation
>> > industry has done a marvellous job of reducing the risk of failure to
an
>> > acceptable level. The key here is acceptable level.
>> >
>> > Other examples. Modern cars: braking systems, airbags. All of the space
>> > shuttles. The Hubble space telescope. Real time control systems in
subways.
>> > Rail controls. Process instrumentation for critical industrial control.
>> > Robotics, etc.. I could go on an on.
>> >
>> > Like I stated earlier, I do share your jaundice of ccr's in their
current
>> > form and wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. On the other hand I
recall
>> > Geoge Ivine stating categorically just a few short months ago(or
perhaps a
>> > year) that he was of the same opinion of any rebreather. Now the only
way
>> > you would get his from him would be to pry it from his cold dead hands.
>> >
>> > Once again the parallel here is that Geoge has confidence in his
rebreather.
>> > It is a high reliablility piece of kit in which he has had a fair
amount of
>> > input into its design and testing. I do believe that eventually ccr's
will
>> > carry an acceptable level of risk. Not now, but unlike you I would
hardly
>> > say never.
>> >
>> > I think the number one problem you nailed dead on. And that is stated
>> > completely in the third paragraph of your message. Way too many
>> > inexperienced people have access to these toys today. I infer the lack
of
>> > experience here rather than the lack of qualifications here simply
because I
>> > know quite a few 'qualified' people that I personally would not take
>> > snorkelling.
>> >
>> > Just incase you were wondering what kind of diving I do - I am one of
the
>> > frozen chosen up here in the north. (Canada) I dive year round in water
>> > temperatures that vary from 32 to 72. Normally do trimix up to 250',
wreck
>> > diving in a fair current 3-5 knots depending on the day. I have about
500
>> > dives in this kind of environment and even in my estimation it is a
tough
>> > slog sometimes.
>> >
>> > You bring up so many valid points, just don't completly right off a
>> > technology because it is as immature as some of the people using it.
>> >
>> > Dan MacKay.
>> >
>> > Katherine V. Irvine wrote:
>> >
>> > > John, thanks for the report. Obviously you are not part of the "Code
>> > > OF Silence" on the topic or electronic rebreathers. Obviously you
know
>> > > better than to go for the usual "diver error" lie that gets used as
an
>> > > excuse every time. The error is using an electronic rb or listening
to
>> > > people who have no clue when betting your life, and I can think of
one
>> > > very annoying such person here in the States to whom reality is but a
>> > > vague notion to be delt with later. My bet is he will "tripple"
anything
>> > > you are seeing with the Inspiration.
>> > >
>> > >   The death rate speaks for itself. However, my opinion , and my
opinion
>> > > menas a lot since I do use rebreathers more successfully than anyone
in
>> > > history, is that the problems we are seeing with these things are not
>> > > idiosyncratic to any one brand - they are all subject to the laws of
>> > > physics and the realities of diving: in other words, they don't work,
>> > > meaning that even when they do work they do not, and when they do
not,
>> > > the kill you. No warning, just dead.
>> > >
>> > >   This stuff needs to slow down now. I do not know about the UK, but
in
>> > > the US the wannabeees who are clammoring to get on the ccr train are
>> > > those who could not dive in a swimming pool with doubles, or other
>> > > heroes who desperately want to level the palying field with those of
us
>> > > who have done what it takes to be the best. It ain't happening. They
>> > > will all end up dead.
>> > >
>> > >   Keep bringing out the truth on this stuff and maybe we can save
some
>> > > lives - not the idiots' here, but real people like your friends there
in
>> > > the UK. What we have here are dumpster diving vagrants and scumbags
with
>> > > long track recods of failure and stupidy who are on the bandwagon.
>> > > Luckily, most of these mutants can't afford a scuba tank, but then we
do
>> > > have some real tough guy wannabees out there who have made some money
>> > > and now want to prove something by jumping into the ring wiht th3e
Big
>> > > Boys. All they will do is prove me right  while dying in a fear
choked
>> > > cluster---, which a few of them have earned for aht they have done to
us
>> > > and others, and for the massive disservice they are doing the sport,
and
>> > > for the disgrace they are making of our hard work.
>> > >
>> > >   We will see a lot more of this, John, until Rule Numbers One and
Two
>> > > get adhered to by more people out there. You guys all have to learn
to
>> > > call a liar a liar, and I will do it for all of you  until you
develop
>> > > the balls to do it yourselves. I have good air cover as many of you
have
>> > > already discovered.
>> > >
>> > >   Electrocic RB's are death traps - do not belong in caves or wrecks,
>> > > and do not belong in tech or rec diving, and should not be pushed and
>> > > peddled to the masses, or used by the unsuspecting, or allowed in the
>> > > hands of liars and scumbags who will let you get killed and call it
your
>> > > fault, or blame it on your diabetes.
>> > >
>> > >   Time to look at the track records and see who is right.
>>
>>
>>
>

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