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From: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*>
To: mr_clark3@ju*.co*
Cc: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: Re: Roger ( the shill ) Steele's Greatest Hits
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 07:49:08 CST
God, If I could only get you to understand that I want factual e-mails, 
not what you have written below.  Give me your sources and I will take a 
look at it.  I want to look at it.    

>From mr_clark3@ju*.co* Sat Feb  7 04:57:25 1998
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>To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>Cc: cavers@ww*.ge*.co*
>Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:43:42 -0500
>Subject: Roger ( the shill ) Steele's Greatest Hits
>Message-ID: <19980207.074343.6734.0.mr_clark3@ju*.co*>
>X-Mailer: Juno 1.49
>X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-8,12-13,17-18,21-22,24-25,29-30,36-165
>From: mr_clark3@ju*.co* (John Clark)
>
> Shill, you have posted 12 times DEMANDING the correlation between TDI
>and DEATH, and you have been given those statistics from every angle,
>agency, person, and format that you requested, without acknowledging 
that
>you were  wrong . You then proceed to comment on the virtues of 
Gilliam's
>use of lies and profanity, while admonishing list members ( this is a
>PRIVATE list) about "liability". You have even thrown in one message
>about "raising the level of discourse", like you have anything to raise
>it with.  
>
>  Let's get this straight ( to borrow one of you more recent demands),
>you have LOWERED the level of discussion by your ignorance, your
>presumptuousness, and your obvious disdain for the truth, while 
pursuing
>the cause of the worst influences in diving today..
>
>  YOU have nothing we want. You are hypocrite, and you have failed to 
do
>anything but prove that point., while also proving that only a neophyte
>would take up the cause of deep air for a pair of known do-nothings 
whose
>agenda is to profit from the misery they sew.
>
>  If you actually had any interest in the real answer to your own
>questions, you would have acknowledged the truth by now, but then where
>would you stand with the heroes of tech diving that you so admire?
>
>  Below are excerpts from your last seventeen wastes of bandwidth. Now 
go
>take a seat - REPEAT _ YOU HAVE NOTHING WE WANT.
>
>  If and when we ever do get to the point where we need to listen to
>known idiots though the mouth of an "intro to cave" student ( even 
though
>only a rank amateur know-nothing like yourself would do this), we will
>quit the sport "that we all love", as you put it.
>
> Read your own crap here below, and read the answers that were provided
>you, and then shut up and stay shut up. It is funny, Mr. Shill, that we
>did not hear a peep out of you while DEMA was going on. If you really
>want to know the "correlation"  between TDI and accidents, ask how many
>suits are pending against TDI. By the way,  did you get the 5 out of 8
>number through your thick head?
>
>                                    ROGER STEELE'S GREATEST HITS
>                                          THE WORDS OF A STROKE
>
>From: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*>
>Subject: Fwd: Re: DeepTech
>Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:45:34 CST
>
>I did not receive a reply from anyone on the list concerning the 
>questions below.  I am sure, since many people on this list seem to be 
>convinced of the unsafe teaching practices of TDI, that there must be 
>strong statistical proof to support these conclusions.  Please respond 
>at your leisure.
>
>-------------
>
>On the other hand, if it cannot be proven, then all 
>of these claims are unsubstantiated by facts and therefore should be 
>considered mere opinion and heresay.  I would like responses that are 
>concerned with providing actual statistics.  
>
>-----------
>
> My question stands: Is there 
>a statistical correlation between scuba diving deaths and TDI 
>certification?  If so, please respond with factual information from a 
>reputable agency that compiles such figures.  
>
>------
>
>TDI certified?  Of the ones that are certified, (if there are any) how 
>many of these deaths can you directly attribute to TDI's unsafe diving 
>instuction?  Please respond with factual statistics.   
>
>------
>My question concerns several comments on 
>this list about TDI unsafe diving instruction in general.  This is a 
>very serious claim that some people are making.  It is my intention to 
>discover the facts that back up these claims.  To my knowledge, no one 
>has been able to do that as of yet, which leads me to believe that 
these 
>comments are unsubstantiated by relevant facts and therefore should be 
>ignored until these facts can be presented in a coherent manner.  As I 
>
>------
>
>Can you prove that TDI is practicing 
>unsafe diving instruction in its classes.  I have asked you to provide 
>me with factual information that would show us all that TDI is directly 
>responsible for any deaths related to scuba diving, not just deep air.  
>You have failed to provide this information.  I can only assume from 
>this that you do not have such information.  From this one can only 
>conclude that your comments are based on heresay and opinion, and 
should 
>be ignored until relevant information is provided. It seems strange to 
>me that I cannot find in any of your responses a mention of DAN, a
>
>-------
>
>I suggest that you 
>contact DAN, as a starting point, in gathering statistical information 
>by which you can correlate scuba diving deaths with TDI certification.  
>
>-------
>
>Therefore, you must take it upon yourself to prove your 
>claims.  I come to you seeking knowledge on this subject.  It 
>
>------
>
>
>If you are going to claim criminal negligence, you are going to have to 
>provide facts to support this.  This is a very dangerous statement to 
>make without facts to back it up.  It amazes me that people are 
>perfectly willing to make such claims in the public forum without the 
>request facts, especially when it concerns actions that are supposedly 
>resulting in the deaths of human beings. Liable is not a funny issue. I 
>just hope that people on the list do not find this out the hard way, 
>right or wrong.     
>
>--------
>One of my intentions in joining this list is 
>to raise the discourse to a level that is worthy of the sport that we 
>all love.  Diving, whether in its technical format or sport format, is
>
>-----
>
>
>
>If these statistics are non-existent or impossible to get to, what are  
>you basing your claims upon?  I do not know whether these statistics 
>exist or not.  That is why I am asking you. In fact, if you have known 
>this all along, why are you just now making this claim?  Have you 
>inquired to DAN for these statistics?  I doubt it.  You have a very 
>difficult problem to surmount now.  By this statement you have 
>
>-----
>
>oint taken.  The information that I am requesting is probably difficult 
>to get.  Analysis of the information will be even more difficult.  
>----
>
>For myself, I really do not see the difference 
>between what Gilliam printed in his magazine and what George has posted 
>on this list, other than the fact that Gilliam did not print profanity.
>
>-----
>
>Maybe he would fair better if he would 
>stop sending posts about internet tactics and start focusing on diving 
>information and techniques.   
>
>-----
>
>Based on our last conversation I 
>don't think you really want to engage me in rational argumentation.  O
>
>----
>
>)  It is an excellent place to pratice lift bag ascents, due to 
>the milky nature of the visibility and the depth.  For instance, doing 
a 
>lift bag ascent in the ocean with high visibility is easy after 
>accomplishing this several times in cold, milky water.  I normall
>
>----
>
>HUH????    Do you think I'm Brett Gilliam the TDI demon, or Roger the 
>cave student of Joe Odom living in Huntsville AL.  Maybe I'm Fred 
>Flintstone, or better yet, George Irvine incognito. 
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
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>
>


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