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God, If I could only get you to understand that I want factual e-mails, not what you have written below. Give me your sources and I will take a look at it. I want to look at it. >From mr_clark3@ju*.co* Sat Feb 7 04:57:25 1998 >Received: from m23.boston.juno.com (m23.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.188]) by zen.kr.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA24553 for <cavers@ww*.ge*.co*>; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:30:24 -0500 (EST) >Received: (from mr_clark3@ju*.co*) > by m23.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id HOY29991; Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:37:22 EST >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com >Cc: cavers@ww*.ge*.co* >Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:43:42 -0500 >Subject: Roger ( the shill ) Steele's Greatest Hits >Message-ID: <19980207.074343.6734.0.mr_clark3@ju*.co*> >X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 >X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-8,12-13,17-18,21-22,24-25,29-30,36-165 >From: mr_clark3@ju*.co* (John Clark) > > Shill, you have posted 12 times DEMANDING the correlation between TDI >and DEATH, and you have been given those statistics from every angle, >agency, person, and format that you requested, without acknowledging that >you were wrong . You then proceed to comment on the virtues of Gilliam's >use of lies and profanity, while admonishing list members ( this is a >PRIVATE list) about "liability". You have even thrown in one message >about "raising the level of discourse", like you have anything to raise >it with. > > Let's get this straight ( to borrow one of you more recent demands), >you have LOWERED the level of discussion by your ignorance, your >presumptuousness, and your obvious disdain for the truth, while pursuing >the cause of the worst influences in diving today.. > > YOU have nothing we want. You are hypocrite, and you have failed to do >anything but prove that point., while also proving that only a neophyte >would take up the cause of deep air for a pair of known do-nothings whose >agenda is to profit from the misery they sew. > > If you actually had any interest in the real answer to your own >questions, you would have acknowledged the truth by now, but then where >would you stand with the heroes of tech diving that you so admire? > > Below are excerpts from your last seventeen wastes of bandwidth. Now go >take a seat - REPEAT _ YOU HAVE NOTHING WE WANT. > > If and when we ever do get to the point where we need to listen to >known idiots though the mouth of an "intro to cave" student ( even though >only a rank amateur know-nothing like yourself would do this), we will >quit the sport "that we all love", as you put it. > > Read your own crap here below, and read the answers that were provided >you, and then shut up and stay shut up. It is funny, Mr. Shill, that we >did not hear a peep out of you while DEMA was going on. If you really >want to know the "correlation" between TDI and accidents, ask how many >suits are pending against TDI. By the way, did you get the 5 out of 8 >number through your thick head? > > ROGER STEELE'S GREATEST HITS > THE WORDS OF A STROKE > >From: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*> >Subject: Fwd: Re: DeepTech >Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:45:34 CST > >I did not receive a reply from anyone on the list concerning the >questions below. I am sure, since many people on this list seem to be >convinced of the unsafe teaching practices of TDI, that there must be >strong statistical proof to support these conclusions. Please respond >at your leisure. > >------------- > >On the other hand, if it cannot be proven, then all >of these claims are unsubstantiated by facts and therefore should be >considered mere opinion and heresay. I would like responses that are >concerned with providing actual statistics. > >----------- > > My question stands: Is there >a statistical correlation between scuba diving deaths and TDI >certification? If so, please respond with factual information from a >reputable agency that compiles such figures. > >------ > >TDI certified? Of the ones that are certified, (if there are any) how >many of these deaths can you directly attribute to TDI's unsafe diving >instuction? Please respond with factual statistics. > >------ >My question concerns several comments on >this list about TDI unsafe diving instruction in general. This is a >very serious claim that some people are making. It is my intention to >discover the facts that back up these claims. To my knowledge, no one >has been able to do that as of yet, which leads me to believe that these >comments are unsubstantiated by relevant facts and therefore should be >ignored until these facts can be presented in a coherent manner. As I > >------ > >Can you prove that TDI is practicing >unsafe diving instruction in its classes. I have asked you to provide >me with factual information that would show us all that TDI is directly >responsible for any deaths related to scuba diving, not just deep air. >You have failed to provide this information. I can only assume from >this that you do not have such information. From this one can only >conclude that your comments are based on heresay and opinion, and should >be ignored until relevant information is provided. It seems strange to >me that I cannot find in any of your responses a mention of DAN, a > >------- > >I suggest that you >contact DAN, as a starting point, in gathering statistical information >by which you can correlate scuba diving deaths with TDI certification. > >------- > >Therefore, you must take it upon yourself to prove your >claims. I come to you seeking knowledge on this subject. It > >------ > > >If you are going to claim criminal negligence, you are going to have to >provide facts to support this. This is a very dangerous statement to >make without facts to back it up. It amazes me that people are >perfectly willing to make such claims in the public forum without the >request facts, especially when it concerns actions that are supposedly >resulting in the deaths of human beings. Liable is not a funny issue. I >just hope that people on the list do not find this out the hard way, >right or wrong. > >-------- >One of my intentions in joining this list is >to raise the discourse to a level that is worthy of the sport that we >all love. Diving, whether in its technical format or sport format, is > >----- > > > >If these statistics are non-existent or impossible to get to, what are >you basing your claims upon? I do not know whether these statistics >exist or not. That is why I am asking you. In fact, if you have known >this all along, why are you just now making this claim? Have you >inquired to DAN for these statistics? I doubt it. You have a very >difficult problem to surmount now. By this statement you have > >----- > >oint taken. The information that I am requesting is probably difficult >to get. Analysis of the information will be even more difficult. >---- > >For myself, I really do not see the difference >between what Gilliam printed in his magazine and what George has posted >on this list, other than the fact that Gilliam did not print profanity. > >----- > >Maybe he would fair better if he would >stop sending posts about internet tactics and start focusing on diving >information and techniques. > >----- > >Based on our last conversation I >don't think you really want to engage me in rational argumentation. O > >---- > >) It is an excellent place to pratice lift bag ascents, due to >the milky nature of the visibility and the depth. For instance, doing a >lift bag ascent in the ocean with high visibility is easy after >accomplishing this several times in cold, milky water. I normall > >---- > >HUH???? Do you think I'm Brett Gilliam the TDI demon, or Roger the >cave student of Joe Odom living in Huntsville AL. Maybe I'm Fred >Flintstone, or better yet, George Irvine incognito. > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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