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You have no statisitics. I heard someone claim that so many deaths in "96 and "97 wre certified by TDI. Of course, they forgot to list the agency that compiled these statistics. Let's see the sources. I will believe you once I look at something that is a little more reputable than your posts. Call me with your sources and stop making ridiculous statements. You should have my number, lord knows, you have connections at the phone company. (HA!!!!!) Just in case you lost the number, it is 1-800-610-2522 ex109. >From mr_clark3@ju*.co* Sat Feb 7 04:57:25 1998 >Received: from m23.boston.juno.com (m23.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.188]) by zen.kr.com (8.8.4/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA24553 for <cavers@ww*.ge*.co*>; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:30:24 -0500 (EST) >Received: (from mr_clark3@ju*.co*) > by m23.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id HOY29991; Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:37:22 EST >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com >Cc: cavers@ww*.ge*.co* >Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:43:42 -0500 >Subject: Roger ( the shill ) Steele's Greatest Hits >Message-ID: <19980207.074343.6734.0.mr_clark3@ju*.co*> >X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 >X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-8,12-13,17-18,21-22,24-25,29-30,36-165 >From: mr_clark3@ju*.co* (John Clark) > > Shill, you have posted 12 times DEMANDING the correlation between TDI >and DEATH, and you have been given those statistics from every angle, >agency, person, and format that you requested, without acknowledging that >you were wrong . You then proceed to comment on the virtues of Gilliam's >use of lies and profanity, while admonishing list members ( this is a >PRIVATE list) about "liability". You have even thrown in one message >about "raising the level of discourse", like you have anything to raise >it with. > > Let's get this straight ( to borrow one of you more recent demands), >you have LOWERED the level of discussion by your ignorance, your >presumptuousness, and your obvious disdain for the truth, while pursuing >the cause of the worst influences in diving today.. > > YOU have nothing we want. You are hypocrite, and you have failed to do >anything but prove that point., while also proving that only a neophyte >would take up the cause of deep air for a pair of known do-nothings whose >agenda is to profit from the misery they sew. > > If you actually had any interest in the real answer to your own >questions, you would have acknowledged the truth by now, but then where >would you stand with the heroes of tech diving that you so admire? > > Below are excerpts from your last seventeen wastes of bandwidth. Now go >take a seat - REPEAT _ YOU HAVE NOTHING WE WANT. > > If and when we ever do get to the point where we need to listen to >known idiots though the mouth of an "intro to cave" student ( even though >only a rank amateur know-nothing like yourself would do this), we will >quit the sport "that we all love", as you put it. > > Read your own crap here below, and read the answers that were provided >you, and then shut up and stay shut up. It is funny, Mr. Shill, that we >did not hear a peep out of you while DEMA was going on. If you really >want to know the "correlation" between TDI and accidents, ask how many >suits are pending against TDI. By the way, did you get the 5 out of 8 >number through your thick head? > > ROGER STEELE'S GREATEST HITS > THE WORDS OF A STROKE > >From: "roger steele" <rogersteele@ho*.co*> >Subject: Fwd: Re: DeepTech >Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:45:34 CST > >I did not receive a reply from anyone on the list concerning the >questions below. I am sure, since many people on this list seem to be >convinced of the unsafe teaching practices of TDI, that there must be >strong statistical proof to support these conclusions. Please respond >at your leisure. > >------------- > >On the other hand, if it cannot be proven, then all >of these claims are unsubstantiated by facts and therefore should be >considered mere opinion and heresay. I would like responses that are >concerned with providing actual statistics. > >----------- > > My question stands: Is there >a statistical correlation between scuba diving deaths and TDI >certification? If so, please respond with factual information from a >reputable agency that compiles such figures. > >------ > >TDI certified? Of the ones that are certified, (if there are any) how >many of these deaths can you directly attribute to TDI's unsafe diving >instuction? Please respond with factual statistics. > >------ >My question concerns several comments on >this list about TDI unsafe diving instruction in general. This is a >very serious claim that some people are making. It is my intention to >discover the facts that back up these claims. To my knowledge, no one >has been able to do that as of yet, which leads me to believe that these >comments are unsubstantiated by relevant facts and therefore should be >ignored until these facts can be presented in a coherent manner. As I > >------ > >Can you prove that TDI is practicing >unsafe diving instruction in its classes. I have asked you to provide >me with factual information that would show us all that TDI is directly >responsible for any deaths related to scuba diving, not just deep air. >You have failed to provide this information. I can only assume from >this that you do not have such information. From this one can only >conclude that your comments are based on heresay and opinion, and should >be ignored until relevant information is provided. It seems strange to >me that I cannot find in any of your responses a mention of DAN, a > >------- > >I suggest that you >contact DAN, as a starting point, in gathering statistical information >by which you can correlate scuba diving deaths with TDI certification. > >------- > >Therefore, you must take it upon yourself to prove your >claims. I come to you seeking knowledge on this subject. It > >------ > > >If you are going to claim criminal negligence, you are going to have to >provide facts to support this. This is a very dangerous statement to >make without facts to back it up. It amazes me that people are >perfectly willing to make such claims in the public forum without the >request facts, especially when it concerns actions that are supposedly >resulting in the deaths of human beings. Liable is not a funny issue. I >just hope that people on the list do not find this out the hard way, >right or wrong. > >-------- >One of my intentions in joining this list is >to raise the discourse to a level that is worthy of the sport that we >all love. Diving, whether in its technical format or sport format, is > >----- > > > >If these statistics are non-existent or impossible to get to, what are >you basing your claims upon? I do not know whether these statistics >exist or not. That is why I am asking you. In fact, if you have known >this all along, why are you just now making this claim? Have you >inquired to DAN for these statistics? I doubt it. You have a very >difficult problem to surmount now. By this statement you have > >----- > >oint taken. The information that I am requesting is probably difficult >to get. Analysis of the information will be even more difficult. >---- > >For myself, I really do not see the difference >between what Gilliam printed in his magazine and what George has posted >on this list, other than the fact that Gilliam did not print profanity. > >----- > >Maybe he would fair better if he would >stop sending posts about internet tactics and start focusing on diving >information and techniques. > >----- > >Based on our last conversation I >don't think you really want to engage me in rational argumentation. O > >---- > >) It is an excellent place to pratice lift bag ascents, due to >the milky nature of the visibility and the depth. For instance, doing a >lift bag ascent in the ocean with high visibility is easy after >accomplishing this several times in cold, milky water. I normall > >---- > >HUH???? Do you think I'm Brett Gilliam the TDI demon, or Roger the >cave student of Joe Odom living in Huntsville AL. Maybe I'm Fred >Flintstone, or better yet, George Irvine incognito. > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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