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>You certify them the same way you certify anyone else. If they can use >the rebreather properly and pass a good written exam, then they pass the >course. If they can't and don't, then they don't pass the course. They >don'y get their money back and they get the opportunity to take the >course again by paying the fee. My problem with your scenario is that the >student had problems with using air with the BMD rebreather and became >hypoxic. My question is how come we breath air now and have no problems >becoming hypoxic. How come open circuit divers don't become hypoxic >breathing air. If you mean that the unit did not supply make-up O2 to the >air that was being rebreathed when it went lower than 16% or so, then I >would I would say that the "instructor" allowing the diver to use the >unit in that fashion was an idiot and had no concept of the rebreather as >life support. Further, if that was the case and the only thing expected >was "a little discomfort", then the "instructor" ought to be publically >stoned with big hard rocks. Rod, The instructor told me hypoxia did not occur, but some symptoms did, i.e., motor skills used in swimming began to degrade. At this point the diver was pulled out of the pool, and was fine in a minute or so. He was wearing full face gear and monitored every second. He was doing basic skills, and a portion of the training involves familiarity with the symptoms of hypoxia. With this rebreather (the BMD), you would use a mixture of nitrox or trimix with a few precentage points higher of oxygen in the mix than what you would actually be rebreathing (36% O2 becomes 32%). The air went from 21 to around 17%, which would clearly cause some of the early symptoms of hypoxia, and discomfort. While this is the incident which originally was reported on the tech diver list, the diver in question is not considering this an issue (he expected to feel some symptoms). His issue is that he wants his money back from BMD, because it is harder to use than he thought it would be. While I'm hearing two sides of the story (the instructor and the student both gave me their version), I believe the boat captain and a large number of divers on the boat used for the week and a half of training dives, can substantiate the lack of bouyancy skills and limited open water skills of the divers in question. Hopefully, this won't become an OJ Simpson trial where we have to march witnesses up to the tech list and grill them, but perhaps I could get a few to issue some statements with their names on them. My real purpose for posing the question was to prevent this whole scenario from happening again by preventing the sale of a rebreather to someone who could never use it. Whether this is the perfect example or not, at some point, an unscupulous sales person for some manufacturer could sell a rebreather unit to someone as a panacea, and this someone will lose out in a big way. It could be just a lot of money, or it could be their life. Rebreathers are big news to diving now, and its not just tech divers thinking about buying them...its rec.scuba readers, and its your average open water recreational diver, who is hoping for more "range" by technology---and someone just might sell it to them. I'm not talking federal regs. I'm saying if the technical community could agree on an issue like this, I think the manufacturers just might follow. If not, you will be the most vocal majority that has any stake in future outcomes, other than a bunch of greedy ambulance chasers with law degrees. Dan If that were the case then the question is >not about uncertifiable students but what to do with completely >incompetent instructors. > >On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Dan Volker wrote: > >> Many of you will be aware that something happened on a BMD rebreather a >> short while ago. What actually happened is less of an issue than the >> scenario that has now been created. >> >> What happened was that a rebreather student in a shallow pool session, was >> purposely using air, with the knowledge that this would lead to hypoxic >> symtoms. The instructor in question wanted this person to understand more >> clearly the importance of gas physics. When the student began to have >> swimming difficulty (this was not expected, discomfort was expected) he was >> immediately pulled up by the instructor, and was fine. The short story on >> this then is that someone wants their money back, because the rebreather is >> harder to learn and use than they thought it would be. >> Several people may argue that this pool training was not proper , and that >> the student should have been walking around on the sidewalk with the unit >> on, for the hypoxia experience. Lets talk about this later. >> >> Without going into detail about specifics (which could effect either party >> in court), the issue is: >> A manufacturer sells a rebreather to someone who can not or will not study >> and learn material basic to deep diving and gas physics. Further, the person >> in question, while certified as a diver, has NO bouyancy skills with single >> or double tanks, and after over a week has made no progress in physical >> skills or attitude. This person expects to be given a card entitling them to >> dive deep wrecks with a rebreather, at the conclusion of their >> vacation/training. >> How can the tech diving industry prevent a NON-TRAINABLE diver from buying a >> rebreather, and then trying to get the certification??? >> >> My first thought was that any one who wanted to purchase a rebreather would >> have to complete nitrox, deepair, tech nitrox and trimix (or equivalent >> advanced training) to guarantee that this person could be fit to dive a >> rebreather. This would spare people who should not become rebreather divers >> from spending $7000 to $20,000 on units they can never learn to use, and >> never be allowed to use...These people DO NEED to be protected. >> Right now, a "never-ever" could spend a small fortune on a rebreather and >> then attempt to get certified. Many manufacturers will require 2/3 money to >> be paid, long before the "new student" receives the unit or their advanced >> training. The instructor which is frequently chosen AFTER the purchase, is >> then placed in the position that they either train this person, or this >> person loses a fortune in their rebreather investment and with no recourse. >> How can you train a person who doesn't take their training seriously? How >> can you train a person not competent intellectually to learn the gas >> physics? What do you do if they have come all the way from accross the >> country or the world to learn the use of this new investment? And what if >> you know after three or four days, that this person will die on whatever >> system you put them on if the eposure is far beyond recreational in complexity? >> >> Not everyone can or should be a technical diver. Not everyone can or should >> use a rebreather. Considering the increased complexity level of the >> rebreather, and the big investment, I think the Tech Diver list needs to >> agree on some standards to force on the industry, before a real incident occurs. >> Anyone have some ideas? >> Dan >> >> Dan Volker >> 407-683-3592 >> >> -- >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@terra.net'. >> Send subscription/archive requests to `techdiver-request@terra.net'. >> > > Dan Volker 407-683-3592
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