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Jim, in large part I agree with your post. However, I think that you can do technical diving safely, and it is fine to do so as long as you stay within certain limits. Basically I won't do dives where I feel that if I blow it I'll die. I try to keep the depth/time relationship such that blowing it most likely means an injury, but not death. Of course for me it also means DIR, which I think adds a huge margin of safety. I also don't get cheap on gear or gas mixes. If you can't afford to do the dive right, go ride your mountain bike or whatever. Everything has a risk, even driving your car. JT may have a point (or not), but beyond that it was a real asshole comment to make. On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 05:45 PM, Jim Cobb wrote: > I was a little dismayed at his post directed at Michelle. Death is a > terrible thing, the loss of your loved one effects different people > different ways. Getting something (anything) off your chest helps deal > with the grief. If Michelle felt that posting to the 700 odd people on > this list about her husbands death will help her deal with the loss > then I think that is a good thing. > > But I see what JT's point is. When I first started techdiving, I had > my life insurance policy squared away, a comprehensive will & > testament and all my bank accounts and titles and mortgages with my > wife's name. I'm no fool, I knew what I was getting into. Then the > kids came along and the really changed things. My wife asked me some > hard questions about my sport, which got me thinking. And tech diving > is a high risk sport of which part of the fun is the risk, like sky > diving, mountain climbing or motorcycle driving. > > And none of these sports are appropriate for a family man, at least a > responsible one. Throwing in a rebreather, especially one with the > track record of the buddy desperation, to me really indicates a person > who's loved ones and family came second to their love of defying > death. Michelle you must have know this. > > I have to tell you that even if I was single, in debt and with a Mafia > contract on my head, I would not use a buddy desperation or any other > rebreather for that matter. Open circuit is KISS and there is no need > for 99% of the divers, even hard corps tech divers, to waste their > money on these things. Electronic rebreathers are toys for rich > technogeeks who want to one-up their diving buddies and nothing more. > > All you wives or husbands out there who techdive really needs to get > your lives in order. If you have children shame on you if you take > unnecessary risks. Even if you don't you had better get your finances > cleared up and life insurance policies squared away. You need to take > responsibility for your actions. And this responsibility extends to > the people who's lives depend on folks who choose to live high-risk > lives. A lot of you people need to come to grips that techdiving in > any location is a high risk sport. Ask any insurance adjuster, they > know. > > I hope Michelles post serves as a wakeup call to you knuckleheads out > there. Techdiving is one of those sports where you need to prepare for > long before you even start taking lessons, as the recent near death in > FL shows. You need to tell your loved ones about the risks involved > and prepare for them, doing otherwise makes me question your > intelligence and/or sanity. > > Jim > > > On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 05:44 PM, Capt JT wrote: > >> What I see with the families of divers who have died it always seems >> those that complain have never gotten involved with the victims >> lives/hobbies until they die and then it is to point the finger at >> something/anything other than the victim .............clearly for a >> human to place his head underwater and breath has some risk and >> should be considered somewhat unsafe. Lets look at the facts YOU >> state..........the unit had many problems, he knew this, you knew >> this and yet he chose to still dive it. To take a unit to breath >> underwater , even if it was working correctly is a risk. He did it >> knowing it had problems which is a much higher risk. Then you back >> this up by saying he is highly intelligent.........Michelle I am >> sorry for his death, but intelligent is not what I would call him. >> Stop posting. >> >> >> >> >> At 07:40 AM 3/18/03 +0000, Michelle wrote: >>> You think you are so big. Don't you think I have torchered myself a >>> million times looking for a way I could hahe stopped him using this >>> equipment now. >>> >>> How dare you try to blame Paul's death on me. >>> >>> Paul was highly inteligent and electronically and computer minded. >>> He was an IT expert. He also was an adult used to making his own >> >>> choices. >>> >>> We discussed on a number of occasions the problems he had had with >>> his original unit. Numerous and often there seemed no obvious way to >>> relate them to each other. He watched the handsets like a hawk and >>> was meticulous in its mainanance. Unfortunately he also beleived >>> that when he had a replacement unit - after much heated discussion >>> with AP, this second unit appeared to be problem free and working as >>> expected. I have the email he sent to martin Parker stating the unit >>> now was working as expected - so it seemed. >>> He made a number of succesful dives on this second unit without >>> problem so put his original problems down to having been suplied 'a >>> lemon'. >>> >>> He had a great deal of respect for the unit and used it with great >>> caution. Obviously this was not enough. >>> >>> On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:26:57 -0500 Capt JT <captjt@mi*.co*> >>> wrote: >>> Michelle, I have only one question for you................Why did >>> you wait >>> until Paul died to get involved in what he was doing. quote "Paul >>> had had >>> no end of problems with the unit".......so you knew something was >>> not right. >>> >>> >>> At 09:04 PM 3/17/03 +0000, Michelle wrote: >>> >Hi George, >>> >You are so right. Paul thought he was helping with breakthroughs >>> when he >>> >particepated in the early trimix dives on the unit. Everyone on the >>> >inspiration site knew what he was doing, he and a dozen or so others >>> >discussed how they were using mix on the unit. Not a word of >>> caution from >>> >the manufacturers, they must have loved all the free research they >>> were >>> >getting done by Paul and the others. There was even a chamber dive >>> planned >>> >to further asess the performance of the unit on trimix. >>> >Then his accident and all of a sudded he was some kind of rogue and >>> the >>> >statement was that he died because he was using trimix. >>> >The unit is sold to be used with trimix and heliox, how did the use >>> of >>> >trimix kill him? We cannot see another diver related reason so lets >>> blame >>> >it on trimix. >>> >Paul did not die because he was using trimix but this was the get >>> out >>> >initially used. There are plenty of people using trimix on the unit >>> now. >>> >Some very lucky people. >>> >Imagine, you have the full suport of your peers and are in freequent >>> >contact with the manufacturers detailing exactly what you are doing. >>> >Suddenly, you die whilst using one of these units and all that >>> suport >>> >dissapears and you become some maveric doing things they would >>> never condone. >>> >Paul had had no end of problems with the unit so was extremely >>> cautious >>> >and meticulous whilst using it. Replacement scrubber lids and a >>> >replacement unit and numerous discussions with AP. >>> > >>> >How does it feel to be the widow? >>> >When the people your sole mate entrusted his life to abandon him >>> and use >>> >him as a scapegoat? They have a quote published in a magazine >>> stating >>> >their sympathy for you when you can see nothing has been done to >>> rectify >>> >the situation, they do nothing and they act like nothing has >>> hapened. >>> >When the daughter you bore after he died wishes on a star that she >>> could >>> >see her father. >>> >When your entire life has been thrown up in the air and slowly >>> falls back >>> >down to the ground shattering in to unrecoverable peices. >>> >When collegues at work dash in to a utility room when they see you >>> walking >>> >towards them in a corridoor because they just don't know what to >>> say to >>> >you. You feel like a leper. >>> >When people ask you 'hello, how are you?' ( normal, polite) you >>> have to >>> >say 'fine thanks' ( normal, polite) but inside you want to screem >>> at them >>> >for asking such a stupid question. How the hell do they think you >>> feel - >>> >but it is not their fault, they don't know how much that simple >>> question >>> >rips you apart. >>> >When you spend endless hours with his patents explaining, trying to >>> make >>> >some sense of it. No parent expects to loose their child. >>> >When you are evicted and your home is reposessed because you are >>> not named >>> >on the mortgage. The home you shared for almost a decade. >>> >When you sit every night in silence on the sofa desperate to hear >>> his keys >>> >in the door as he comes home to you. >>> >You hear about 15 more people loosing their life on the same unit >>> but >>> >still no questions are asked. >>> >And all the time the one you love is being used as a scapegoat, >>> called an >>> >idiot by people who never met him, and every time you try to defend >>> him >>> >you are pushed off as an hysterical woman. You look deeper and >>> deeper and >>> >ask questions that no-one will answer. >>> >You have to listen to his reputation being ripped to shreds even >>> though >>> >you know what people are saying is wrong. >>> > >>> >Shall I go on, or do you get the impression? >>> >Martin Parker has spoken to me twice. Once at Paul's inquest where >>> he said >>> >'stuffy in there, isn't it' and once at Nic Gotto's inquest where >>> he tried >>> >to say hello as if we were old friends, and asked was I well, in >>> the most >>> >incredable upbeat maner, I was horrified and speachless. He seems >>> to have >>> >absolutely no concept. >>> > >>> >As for the other things I can tell you about their performance, how >>> about >>> >attempting to submit a graph ( of how long the loop could sustain >>> life) at >>> >a public inquest, which was massively innacurate but if it had been >>> >believed could have explained the pathologists findings. The graph's >>> >innacuracy was exposed and there was no other way AP could explain >>> the >>> >pathologist's findings. The pathalogical evidence that Paul had >>> been alive >>> >for some time, probably hours, following a hypoxic event. >>> > >>> >On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 18:04:43 -0500 George Irvine <trey@my*.ne*> >>> wrote: >>> >Lisa, this post of yours has brought out the usual suspects from >>> the Buddy >>> >Inspiration cheering section, who are about the same caliber of >>> mentality as >>> >you would expect to see at a cock fight. They are citing some web >>> links that >>> >contain examples of stupidity that are beyond the pale, but they >>> see them as >>> >fantastic accomplishments. >>> > >>> >Maybe you and the rest of the Buddy Inspiration widows can explain >>> to these >>> >morons what it really means to have your husband killed by a piece >>> of shit >>> >like Martin Parker, by the crap training out there, by the "every >>> man for >>> >himself" mentality of the tough guy Brits who seem to feel these >>> devices >>> >make them a real man, and by the very "accomplishments" ( read >>> doing stupid >>> >things and getting away with it) that they are so proud of. >>> > >>> >The funny thing is that they want to attack me over your post. Your >>> husband >>> >is dead along with countless others due to this piece of crap and >>> the >>> >thinking that surrounds it, and we have some lame moron on here >>> telling me >>> >how superior these people are and how screwed up GUE is ( now he >>> has changed >>> >that to "DIR"). >>> > >>> >Maybe you can put some of the things you told me privately on here >>> and save >>> >some lives. While the idiots are well recognized by most of us a >>> idiots, you >>> >never know who you could prevent from suffering like you have. >>> > >>> > >>> >-----Original Message----- >>> >From: Lisa [mailto:lisa3@ch*.co*] >>> >Sent: Thursday, March 10, 3707 12:58 AM >>> >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com >>> >Subject: Nic Gotto Inquest >>> > >>> > >>> >Cork City Coroner, Dr Myra Cullinane, last week recorded an open >>> verdict at >>> >the conclusion of the inquest into the death of Nic Gotto, Union >>> Hall, >>> >County Cork, who died in July 1998 whilst using the Buddy >>> Inspiration >>> >Rebreather. The coroners court heard that Nic and some friends were >>> due to >>> >dive to the Kowloon Bridge wreck, just a few miles south of >>> Glandore harbour >>> >in County Cork, when the tradgy happened. Nic and his buddy entered >>> the >>> >water as normal and proceeded to the bow of the wreck at 9m. All >>> was well at >>> >thisstage, Nic was seen to have looked at his handsets and then >>> signalled Ok >>> >to his buddy. He indicated a direction for the dive to continue and >>> lead the >>> >way with his buddy following behind. The visibility was very poor >>> that day >>> >and Nic's buddy lost sight of him for a few minutes only able to >>> follow by >>> >using Nic's torch beam for direction. Within a few minutes the >>> buddy came >>> >upon Nic lying on his back with his mouthpiece out and having what >>> appeared >>> >to be a convulsion. His buddy immediately realised that Nic was in >>> trouble >>> >and attempt to rescue him. In the rescue attempt Nic's buddy lost >>> his own >>> >mouthpiece and weight belt and started to ascend. He made it to the >>> 9m mark >>> >and managed to alert another pair of divers that Nic was in >>> trouble. One of >>> >the other divers quickly found Nic and assisted him to the surface >>> where he >>> >was taken onboard the boat and CPR was administered for 45 minutes >>> after >>> >which time the Air Sea Rescue helicopter winched him on board and >>> flew him >>> >to hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival. The court >>> heard that >>> >Nic's rebreather was dropped during his rescue and was not >>> recovered for >>> >some days. On inspection the Buddy Inspiration Rebreather was found >>> to be in >>> >good working order and no alterations had been made to the kit. >>> There was a >>> >reading on both guages. Both handsets, when opened, were found to >>> be cracked >>> >and full of seawater. Nic had been seen to be having difficulties >>> >calibrating his equipment prior to getting on the boat. On the boat >>> prior to >>> >the dive, Nic dismantled and cleaned and re assembled his equipment, >>> >breathed from the unit and prepared to enter the water. It was >>> noted that no >>> >alarm was heard at anytime before, during and after Nic was brought >>> to the >>> >surface. Mr Hogan, the pathologist at Cork University Hospital, >>> said that >>> >Nic had suffered drowning after a metabolic event had occurred >>> leading to >>> >him losing consciousness, he said that it might have Hyperoxia or >>> Hycapnia. >>> >It was recorded that Nic had completed approx. 10 dives on the >>> equipment. As >>> >no one had witnessed Nic changing the scrubber canister the >>> manufactures, AP >>> >Valves, did make a submission that it might have been Hypercapnia >>> that lead >>> >to Nic's demise. Nic's widow Rachel was able to tell the court that >>> of two >>> >20kg drums of sofnalime at her house over half of one is gone. The >>> coroner >>> >seemed satisfied that this suggested that Nic had replaced the >>> scruba >>> >contents. At the end of three days the Jury were directed to return >>> one of >>> >three possible verdicts, accidental death, death by misadventure >>> and open >>> >verdict. They returned the latter. >>> > >>> >During questioning, a witness who initially reported that Nic told >>> her the >>> >scrubber could last 10 hours, confirmed this 10 hours could well >>> have >>> >related to the O2 cylinder duration and not the scrubber. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >My condolencies to Rachel, Nic's wife, and his three daughters, two >>> who are >>> >teenagers and one little girl who has never seen her father. >>> > >>> > >>> >-- >>> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >-- >>> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >>> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. >>> >>> >>> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get >>> in the >>> water" >>> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more >>> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >>> Email captjt@mi*.co* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get >> in the water" >> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more >> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/ >> Email captjt@mi*.co* >> >> >> -- >> Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to >> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. >> Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to >> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > > -- > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. > Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to > `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. > -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
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