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Paul-
I think the phrase you need to us is "relatively safely."
And yes everything has a certain risk but there are necessary risks and
unnecessary risks. Diving falls into the latter if you have certain
responsibilities. There is nothing down there worth dying over.
Risk analysis is something everybody does on a daily basis. You look
out the window, see that it is sleeting ice and decide that you really
don't need that quart of milk and toss the keys back in your pocket.
Then there are those who like sliding around corners in their car
sideways and intentionally take the long way to the food market to
extend the fun. These are the people who techdive. I do not propose
living in a shell, and there are things you can do to reduce risk
within a risky sport (i.e. DIR). But let's face it, a major thrill of
techdiving is pushing the limits, it defines the sport.
If you do have commitments and you arrange your life so that your
sudden departure does not over overly effect people who depend on you
monetarily or emotionally, then that's cool, go for it. Military people
understand this and do it all the time.
But to put exposing yourself to the grey-zone of breathing high PP's of
various gasses, the vagaries of equipment and mother nature on the same
level of driving up to the local 7-11 you are fooling yourself.
Technical diving is spitting in the eye of Murphy's Law in a huge
fashion.
On JT, I count him as one of my friends and in this case I think he
made a mistake. I wish I had a nickel for every mistake I ever made.
I feel for Michelle, but I think that good things can come out of bad.
Her good thing was to warn divers about the Buddy Desperation. Her
husbands good thing was to demonstrate how not arraigning your life
prior to taking up a risk laden sport is pathetically stupid. The
horror and pain that can be the result of such stupidity. And allowing
your family to think that "oh, Daddy's just going for another dive, no
worse than driving up to the store for a bottle of milk" was the worse
of all.
Jim
On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 11:38 PM, Paul Braunbehrens wrote:
> Jim, in large part I agree with your post. However, I think that you
> can do technical diving safely, and it is fine to do so as long as you
> stay within certain limits. Basically I won't do dives where I feel
> that if I blow it I'll die. I try to keep the depth/time relationship
> such that blowing it most likely means an injury, but not death.
>
> Of course for me it also means DIR, which I think adds a huge margin
> of safety. I also don't get cheap on gear or gas mixes. If you can't
> afford to do the dive right, go ride your mountain bike or whatever.
>
> Everything has a risk, even driving your car.
>
> JT may have a point (or not), but beyond that it was a real asshole
> comment to make.
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 05:45 PM, Jim Cobb wrote:
>
>> I was a little dismayed at his post directed at Michelle. Death is a
>> terrible thing, the loss of your loved one effects different people
>> different ways. Getting something (anything) off your chest helps
>> deal with the grief. If Michelle felt that posting to the 700 odd
>> people on this list about her husbands death will help her deal with
>> the loss then I think that is a good thing.
>>
>> But I see what JT's point is. When I first started techdiving, I had
>> my life insurance policy squared away, a comprehensive will &
>> testament and all my bank accounts and titles and mortgages with my
>> wife's name. I'm no fool, I knew what I was getting into. Then the
>> kids came along and the really changed things. My wife asked me some
>> hard questions about my sport, which got me thinking. And tech diving
>> is a high risk sport of which part of the fun is the risk, like sky
>> diving, mountain climbing or motorcycle driving.
>>
>> And none of these sports are appropriate for a family man, at least a
>> responsible one. Throwing in a rebreather, especially one with the
>> track record of the buddy desperation, to me really indicates a
>> person who's loved ones and family came second to their love of
>> defying death. Michelle you must have know this.
>>
>> I have to tell you that even if I was single, in debt and with a
>> Mafia contract on my head, I would not use a buddy desperation or any
>> other rebreather for that matter. Open circuit is KISS and there is
>> no need for 99% of the divers, even hard corps tech divers, to waste
>> their money on these things. Electronic rebreathers are toys for rich
>> technogeeks who want to one-up their diving buddies and nothing more.
>>
>> All you wives or husbands out there who techdive really needs to get
>> your lives in order. If you have children shame on you if you take
>> unnecessary risks. Even if you don't you had better get your finances
>> cleared up and life insurance policies squared away. You need to take
>> responsibility for your actions. And this responsibility extends to
>> the people who's lives depend on folks who choose to live high-risk
>> lives. A lot of you people need to come to grips that techdiving in
>> any location is a high risk sport. Ask any insurance adjuster, they
>> know.
>>
>> I hope Michelles post serves as a wakeup call to you knuckleheads out
>> there. Techdiving is one of those sports where you need to prepare
>> for long before you even start taking lessons, as the recent near
>> death in FL shows. You need to tell your loved ones about the risks
>> involved and prepare for them, doing otherwise makes me question your
>> intelligence and/or sanity.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 05:44 PM, Capt JT wrote:
>>
>>> What I see with the families of divers who have died it always seems
>>> those that complain have never gotten involved with the victims
>>> lives/hobbies until they die and then it is to point the finger at
>>> something/anything other than the victim .............clearly for a
>>> human to place his head underwater and breath has some risk and
>>> should be considered somewhat unsafe. Lets look at the facts YOU
>>> state..........the unit had many problems, he knew this, you knew
>>> this and yet he chose to still dive it. To take a unit to breath
>>> underwater , even if it was working correctly is a risk. He did it
>>> knowing it had problems which is a much higher risk. Then you back
>>> this up by saying he is highly intelligent.........Michelle I am
>>> sorry for his death, but intelligent is not what I would call him.
>>> Stop posting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:40 AM 3/18/03 +0000, Michelle wrote:
>>>> You think you are so big. Don't you think I have torchered myself a
>>>> million times looking for a way I could hahe stopped him using this
>>>> equipment now.
>>>>
>>>> How dare you try to blame Paul's death on me.
>>>>
>>>> Paul was highly inteligent and electronically and computer minded.
>>>> He was an IT expert. He also was an adult used to making his own >>
>>>> choices.
>>>>
>>>> We discussed on a number of occasions the problems he had had with
>>>> his original unit. Numerous and often there seemed no obvious way
>>>> to relate them to each other. He watched the handsets like a hawk
>>>> and was meticulous in its mainanance. Unfortunately he also
>>>> beleived that when he had a replacement unit - after much heated
>>>> discussion with AP, this second unit appeared to be problem free
>>>> and working as expected. I have the email he sent to martin Parker
>>>> stating the unit now was working as expected - so it seemed.
>>>> He made a number of succesful dives on this second unit without
>>>> problem so put his original problems down to having been suplied 'a
>>>> lemon'.
>>>>
>>>> He had a great deal of respect for the unit and used it with great
>>>> caution. Obviously this was not enough.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 20:26:57 -0500 Capt JT <captjt@mi*.co*>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Michelle, I have only one question for you................Why did
>>>> you wait
>>>> until Paul died to get involved in what he was doing. quote "Paul
>>>> had had
>>>> no end of problems with the unit".......so you knew something was
>>>> not right.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 09:04 PM 3/17/03 +0000, Michelle wrote:
>>>> >Hi George,
>>>> >You are so right. Paul thought he was helping with breakthroughs
>>>> when he
>>>> >particepated in the early trimix dives on the unit. Everyone on the
>>>> >inspiration site knew what he was doing, he and a dozen or so
>>>> others
>>>> >discussed how they were using mix on the unit. Not a word of
>>>> caution from
>>>> >the manufacturers, they must have loved all the free research they
>>>> were
>>>> >getting done by Paul and the others. There was even a chamber dive
>>>> planned
>>>> >to further asess the performance of the unit on trimix.
>>>> >Then his accident and all of a sudded he was some kind of rogue
>>>> and the
>>>> >statement was that he died because he was using trimix.
>>>> >The unit is sold to be used with trimix and heliox, how did the
>>>> use of
>>>> >trimix kill him? We cannot see another diver related reason so
>>>> lets blame
>>>> >it on trimix.
>>>> >Paul did not die because he was using trimix but this was the get
>>>> out
>>>> >initially used. There are plenty of people using trimix on the
>>>> unit now.
>>>> >Some very lucky people.
>>>> >Imagine, you have the full suport of your peers and are in
>>>> freequent
>>>> >contact with the manufacturers detailing exactly what you are
>>>> doing.
>>>> >Suddenly, you die whilst using one of these units and all that
>>>> suport
>>>> >dissapears and you become some maveric doing things they would
>>>> never condone.
>>>> >Paul had had no end of problems with the unit so was extremely
>>>> cautious
>>>> >and meticulous whilst using it. Replacement scrubber lids and a
>>>> >replacement unit and numerous discussions with AP.
>>>> >
>>>> >How does it feel to be the widow?
>>>> >When the people your sole mate entrusted his life to abandon him
>>>> and use
>>>> >him as a scapegoat? They have a quote published in a magazine
>>>> stating
>>>> >their sympathy for you when you can see nothing has been done to
>>>> rectify
>>>> >the situation, they do nothing and they act like nothing has
>>>> hapened.
>>>> >When the daughter you bore after he died wishes on a star that she
>>>> could
>>>> >see her father.
>>>> >When your entire life has been thrown up in the air and slowly
>>>> falls back
>>>> >down to the ground shattering in to unrecoverable peices.
>>>> >When collegues at work dash in to a utility room when they see you
>>>> walking
>>>> >towards them in a corridoor because they just don't know what to
>>>> say to
>>>> >you. You feel like a leper.
>>>> >When people ask you 'hello, how are you?' ( normal, polite) you
>>>> have to
>>>> >say 'fine thanks' ( normal, polite) but inside you want to screem
>>>> at them
>>>> >for asking such a stupid question. How the hell do they think you
>>>> feel -
>>>> >but it is not their fault, they don't know how much that simple
>>>> question
>>>> >rips you apart.
>>>> >When you spend endless hours with his patents explaining, trying
>>>> to make
>>>> >some sense of it. No parent expects to loose their child.
>>>> >When you are evicted and your home is reposessed because you are
>>>> not named
>>>> >on the mortgage. The home you shared for almost a decade.
>>>> >When you sit every night in silence on the sofa desperate to hear
>>>> his keys
>>>> >in the door as he comes home to you.
>>>> >You hear about 15 more people loosing their life on the same unit
>>>> but
>>>> >still no questions are asked.
>>>> >And all the time the one you love is being used as a scapegoat,
>>>> called an
>>>> >idiot by people who never met him, and every time you try to
>>>> defend him
>>>> >you are pushed off as an hysterical woman. You look deeper and
>>>> deeper and
>>>> >ask questions that no-one will answer.
>>>> >You have to listen to his reputation being ripped to shreds even
>>>> though
>>>> >you know what people are saying is wrong.
>>>> >
>>>> >Shall I go on, or do you get the impression?
>>>> >Martin Parker has spoken to me twice. Once at Paul's inquest where
>>>> he said
>>>> >'stuffy in there, isn't it' and once at Nic Gotto's inquest where
>>>> he tried
>>>> >to say hello as if we were old friends, and asked was I well, in
>>>> the most
>>>> >incredable upbeat maner, I was horrified and speachless. He seems
>>>> to have
>>>> >absolutely no concept.
>>>> >
>>>> >As for the other things I can tell you about their performance,
>>>> how about
>>>> >attempting to submit a graph ( of how long the loop could sustain
>>>> life) at
>>>> >a public inquest, which was massively innacurate but if it had been
>>>> >believed could have explained the pathologists findings. The
>>>> graph's
>>>> >innacuracy was exposed and there was no other way AP could explain
>>>> the
>>>> >pathologist's findings. The pathalogical evidence that Paul had
>>>> been alive
>>>> >for some time, probably hours, following a hypoxic event.
>>>> >
>>>> >On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 18:04:43 -0500 George Irvine <trey@my*.ne*>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >Lisa, this post of yours has brought out the usual suspects from
>>>> the Buddy
>>>> >Inspiration cheering section, who are about the same caliber of
>>>> mentality as
>>>> >you would expect to see at a cock fight. They are citing some web
>>>> links that
>>>> >contain examples of stupidity that are beyond the pale, but they
>>>> see them as
>>>> >fantastic accomplishments.
>>>> >
>>>> >Maybe you and the rest of the Buddy Inspiration widows can explain
>>>> to these
>>>> >morons what it really means to have your husband killed by a piece
>>>> of shit
>>>> >like Martin Parker, by the crap training out there, by the "every
>>>> man for
>>>> >himself" mentality of the tough guy Brits who seem to feel these
>>>> devices
>>>> >make them a real man, and by the very "accomplishments" ( read
>>>> doing stupid
>>>> >things and getting away with it) that they are so proud of.
>>>> >
>>>> >The funny thing is that they want to attack me over your post.
>>>> Your husband
>>>> >is dead along with countless others due to this piece of crap and
>>>> the
>>>> >thinking that surrounds it, and we have some lame moron on here
>>>> telling me
>>>> >how superior these people are and how screwed up GUE is ( now he
>>>> has changed
>>>> >that to "DIR").
>>>> >
>>>> >Maybe you can put some of the things you told me privately on here
>>>> and save
>>>> >some lives. While the idiots are well recognized by most of us a
>>>> idiots, you
>>>> >never know who you could prevent from suffering like you have.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: Lisa [mailto:lisa3@ch*.co*]
>>>> >Sent: Thursday, March 10, 3707 12:58 AM
>>>> >To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
>>>> >Subject: Nic Gotto Inquest
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >Cork City Coroner, Dr Myra Cullinane, last week recorded an open
>>>> verdict at
>>>> >the conclusion of the inquest into the death of Nic Gotto, Union
>>>> Hall,
>>>> >County Cork, who died in July 1998 whilst using the Buddy
>>>> Inspiration
>>>> >Rebreather. The coroners court heard that Nic and some friends
>>>> were due to
>>>> >dive to the Kowloon Bridge wreck, just a few miles south of
>>>> Glandore harbour
>>>> >in County Cork, when the tradgy happened. Nic and his buddy
>>>> entered the
>>>> >water as normal and proceeded to the bow of the wreck at 9m. All
>>>> was well at
>>>> >thisstage, Nic was seen to have looked at his handsets and then
>>>> signalled Ok
>>>> >to his buddy. He indicated a direction for the dive to continue
>>>> and lead the
>>>> >way with his buddy following behind. The visibility was very poor
>>>> that day
>>>> >and Nic's buddy lost sight of him for a few minutes only able to
>>>> follow by
>>>> >using Nic's torch beam for direction. Within a few minutes the
>>>> buddy came
>>>> >upon Nic lying on his back with his mouthpiece out and having what
>>>> appeared
>>>> >to be a convulsion. His buddy immediately realised that Nic was in
>>>> trouble
>>>> >and attempt to rescue him. In the rescue attempt Nic's buddy lost
>>>> his own
>>>> >mouthpiece and weight belt and started to ascend. He made it to
>>>> the 9m mark
>>>> >and managed to alert another pair of divers that Nic was in
>>>> trouble. One of
>>>> >the other divers quickly found Nic and assisted him to the surface
>>>> where he
>>>> >was taken onboard the boat and CPR was administered for 45 minutes
>>>> after
>>>> >which time the Air Sea Rescue helicopter winched him on board and
>>>> flew him
>>>> >to hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival. The court
>>>> heard that
>>>> >Nic's rebreather was dropped during his rescue and was not
>>>> recovered for
>>>> >some days. On inspection the Buddy Inspiration Rebreather was
>>>> found to be in
>>>> >good working order and no alterations had been made to the kit.
>>>> There was a
>>>> >reading on both guages. Both handsets, when opened, were found to
>>>> be cracked
>>>> >and full of seawater. Nic had been seen to be having difficulties
>>>> >calibrating his equipment prior to getting on the boat. On the
>>>> boat prior to
>>>> >the dive, Nic dismantled and cleaned and re assembled his
>>>> equipment,
>>>> >breathed from the unit and prepared to enter the water. It was
>>>> noted that no
>>>> >alarm was heard at anytime before, during and after Nic was
>>>> brought to the
>>>> >surface. Mr Hogan, the pathologist at Cork University Hospital,
>>>> said that
>>>> >Nic had suffered drowning after a metabolic event had occurred
>>>> leading to
>>>> >him losing consciousness, he said that it might have Hyperoxia or
>>>> Hycapnia.
>>>> >It was recorded that Nic had completed approx. 10 dives on the
>>>> equipment. As
>>>> >no one had witnessed Nic changing the scrubber canister the
>>>> manufactures, AP
>>>> >Valves, did make a submission that it might have been Hypercapnia
>>>> that lead
>>>> >to Nic's demise. Nic's widow Rachel was able to tell the court
>>>> that of two
>>>> >20kg drums of sofnalime at her house over half of one is gone. The
>>>> coroner
>>>> >seemed satisfied that this suggested that Nic had replaced the
>>>> scruba
>>>> >contents. At the end of three days the Jury were directed to
>>>> return one of
>>>> >three possible verdicts, accidental death, death by misadventure
>>>> and open
>>>> >verdict. They returned the latter.
>>>> >
>>>> >During questioning, a witness who initially reported that Nic told
>>>> her the
>>>> >scrubber could last 10 hours, confirmed this 10 hours could well
>>>> have
>>>> >related to the O2 cylinder duration and not the scrubber.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >My condolencies to Rachel, Nic's wife, and his three daughters,
>>>> two who are
>>>> >teenagers and one little girl who has never seen her father.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >--
>>>> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>>> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >--
>>>> >Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
>>>> `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.
>>>> >Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to
>>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to
>>>> get in the
>>>> water"
>>>> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
>>>> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
>>>> Email captjt@mi*.co*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get
>>> in the water"
>>> Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
>>> Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
>>> Email captjt@mi*.co*
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.
>>
>> --
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>>
>
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