Hi Wendell:

>>>you have to have boat operators and divers who are practiced in it..

Very true, but you have to start some place.

>>>The divers have to know how to stay together,

A basic thing that should have been learned in open water training...

>>>the boat crew has to know how to keep an eye on the divers.

Again true.  But they should know that anyhow.  The most important thing is
for the divers to realize that if they are off the wreck and off the line
they need to put up a marker ASAP.

>>> There need to be signals for teams having difficulties, etc.

Again, this should be done no matter what.

>>> This starts with the assumption that the divers have the basic skills
>>>to drift deco, etc.

If they don't, they are violating one of the basic rules of techdiving which
is to never dive beyond your experience and abilities or those of any team
member.  If the boat were tied in and there were a raging current and for
whatever reason you got blown off the line you would have to be able to
deploy a lift bag and do a drifting deco.  This requires basic skills.
Anyone that does not have them shouldn't be diving at that level.
They should learn them on no deco dives where if you pop to the surface it
doesn't matter.  Lack of these skills ,in my opinion, is a contributing
factor in many of the rapid ascent accidents we hear about.
Inadequate surface support is another contributing factor.  You have to be
confident that if you are blown off the line that someone will see your lift
bag and send out a chase boat.

>>> The devil's in the details.

Not really.  It sounds more complicated than it is.  The key ingredient is
in the divers ability to function as a team and to perform basic skills, the
lack of which should preclude them from the dive.

Just my .02 worth.

Regards.

Joe



----- Original Message -----
From: "wendell grogan" <docgrog@ya*.de*>
To: "Joe" <joe@po*.co*>; "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*>;
"Christian Gerzner" <christiang@in*.co*.au*>
Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: VBTech vs. Nova Tech


> Sure its simple, but you have to have boat operators
> and divers who are practiced in it because up here
> things end up in the pooper scooper real fast.  The
> divers have to know how to stay together, the boat
> crew has to know how to keep an eye on the divers.
> There need to be signals for teams having
> difficulties, etc.
> This starts with the assumption that the divers have
> the basic skills to drift deco, etc.
> The devil's in the details.
> Wendell
> --- Joe <joe@po*.co*> wrote:
> > Guys, the solution is real simple.  You ask how much
> > to charter the boat and
> > fill it with your own people.  Then you tell the
> > Captain what you want done
> > and how you want it.  If he says no you find someone
> > who will do as you
> > wish.
> >
> > I don't buy that they won't do it because they are
> > business men.  When they
> > see they are losing $$$$ they will give you what you
> > want.  We did it here
> > in Fla. on many occasions.  We show up with our own
> > line, grapple and float
> > and set up the dive ourselves.   When the operator
> > comes up with something
> > stupid we just walk away.  Ironically, once they get
> > over the initial
> > resistance,  most of them love to have us on board
> > because the dives go
> > smooth and easy and there is minimal work for them.
> >
> > As far as learning to drift dive, it all goes back
> > to basics.  If you have
> > no buoyancy control you don't belong on these dives.
> >  If you can maintain
> > buoyancy, you can drift dive.  If you can't do a
> > drifting deco using nothing
> > but a depth gauge, you have no business doing these
> > dives.  (Not to say that
> > you should ever deliberately dive with no line but
> > you should be capable of
> > doing your whole deco with nothing but a depth
> > gauge.)  The real problem is
> > that everyone wants to skip the learning process and
> > jump from Padi OW to
> > Trimix in 2 years.
> >
> > We routinely put 5 to 10 divers on deep wrecks in
> > ripping currents and
> > everyone hits the wreck and there are no CF's.  It
> > isn't difficult to do so.
> > All it takes is basic, fundamental skills.  Pun
> > intended.
> >
> > Regards to all.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "wendell grogan" <docgrog@ya*.de*>
> > To: "Jim Cobb" <cobber@ci*.co*>; "Christian
> > Gerzner"
> > <christiang@in*.co*.au*>
> > Cc: <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
> > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 7:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: VBTech vs. Nova Tech
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Just before this latest tiff started, I had been
> > > getting a lot of very interesting information (off
> > > list) on how things are done in the British Isles.
> > > They do this (drift deco after dive bombing the
> > wreck)
> > > as a matter of routine, but there is quite a bit
> > to
> > > consider and a number of new skills to be
> > practiced
> > > for this to come out right.
> > > I was also thinking about the advantages last
> > weekend
> > > while doing my 20 foot stop along with what seemed
> > > like a cast of thousands, the boat bucking in
> > rollers
> > > perpendicular to the slight current and helping
> > out my
> > > buddy with a leaking back up reg hose...
> > > Basic Anglo-Saxon words regarding various bodily
> > > functions kept going through my mind, but the
> > > conclusion seems to be that we should start doing
> > this
> > > here in the North Atlantic US.
> > > The problems are inertia and a lack of
> > > experience/training that would make it a matter of
> > > routine for most if not all dives.  Also, since
> > the
> > > thing that drives the industry is people who are
> > > either taking or just finishing AOW going on
> > shallow
> > > wreck dives, finding a boat operator who wants to
> > run
> > > the training dives on what would normally be their
> > > milk run wrecks, is going to be tough.
> > > Wendell
> > >
> > > --- Jim Cobb <cobber@ci*.co*> wrote:
> > > > This leads back to the basic question: What do
> > you
> > > > require to be on your
> > > > diveboat before you go out on it? George knows
> > this
> > > > situation with
> > > > chaseboats and his solution, which costs the
> > dive
> > > > operations nothing but
> > > > some fuel and inconvinence, is to not anchor to
> > a
> > > > wreck during a dive.
> > > > Problem solved. No chaseboat needed, no
> > deployment
> > > > issues.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> > > http://health.yahoo.com
> > > --
> > > Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to
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> > >
> > >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
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