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Richard Pyle??????? This is a joke, right? Check with USN on WKPP
decompressions or across the hall at your own Duke University. Pyle is a
bounce diver and his stop methods do not hold up on real dives. Ours do,
Bruce's do. We have data, not BS, so does Bruce.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bennett, Peter [mailto:pbennett@da*.du*.ed*]
  Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:31 PM
  To: 'Bruce R. Wienke'; toverland@oi*.oc*.co*; tneuman@uc*.ed*;
ryn@dc*.dn*.ca*; Paul J. Sheffield Ph. D. (E-mail); Bennett, Peter; Orr,
Dan; v.flook@ab*.ac*.uk*; beyerstein@ao*.co*; Vann, Richard;
jlivingstone@na*.or*; jbram@na*.or*; p.oliver@na*.or*;
andihq@ao*.co*; oxygenengr@ao*.co*; PSAuerbach@ao*.co*;
rwhamilton@co*.co*; evincotter@cs*.co*; cborne@ea*.ne*;
walt.jaap@fw*.st*.fl*.us*; bturbo@ga*.ne*; dick@hy*.co*;
mwells@in*.ne*; Denoble, Petar; alexakos@gu*.co*; trey@ne*.co*;
iantdhq@ix*.ne*.co*; Moon, Richard; emmerman@nb*.co*;
dave.dinsmore@no*.go*; boliver@sc*.co*; brianc@td*.co*;
gegstrom@uc*.ed*; kvanhoesen@uc*.ed*; brylske@ao*.co*
  Cc: deco@de*.or*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
  Subject: RE: How About A Dan-Tech Deep Stops Workshop/Mtg


  Dear Bruce,

      We never claimed DAN discovered the deep stop but Haldane in 1906 and
you have provided no evidence to the contrary. However I do understand from
Richard Pyles' excellent presentation in Hawaii that technical divers have
learned the value of the deep stop.  More strength to them.

      You have a perfect right to not agree, that is what science is all
about and why one tests hypotheses to see who is correct. Professor Marroni
and I are now doing the research, in the ocean with divers (not goats like
Haldane) to see who is correct so far as the recreational divers we deal
with to 100 ft. or perhaps 130 ft (no technical divers).

      The Alert Diver article refers to but a very small part of an on-going
study and extensive series of European ocean divers, from a large matrix of
different ascent rates and stops, and measurement of tissue gas loadings
with the UWATEC computer and precordial doppler for presence of bubbles. The
current data will be presented at the EUBS meeting in Brussels in September.
This will be data not hypothesis.

      Professor Marroni at the EUBS meeting in Malta 2000 presented two
papers of other data which I very briefly referred to in my Alert Diver
editorial of March 2001 "Putting on the Brakes."  The papers were (A.)
"Incidence of asymptomatic circulating venous gas emboli in unrestricted
uneventful recreational diving," and (B.) "Effects of the variation of
ascent speed and profile on the production of circulating venous gas emboli
and the incidence of DCS in compressed air diving.  Phase 1. Introduction of
extra deep stops in the ascent profile without changing the original ascent
rates."

      With the latter study, they were able to reduce high doppler bubble
grades from 30.5% to zero with the addition of a deep stop.

      The technical dive community may claim they invented the deep stop as
they wish, but the fact is that they have not been used by recreational
scuba divers in general and Haldane did suggest them too, with the 2:1 ratio
in 1906. We believe that a deep stop maybe of significant value for the
recreational scuba diver too and are doing the research to see if that is
correct and study the relationships between stops and ascent rates as well.

      I will gladly send Powell the documents I have used which relate the
historical difference between Hill (linear) and Haldane (stops and 2:1
ratio) if he wishes to ask for them.

      Meanwhile we will continue our research and let the data speak for
itself - there are lots of theories but precious little real human
experiments and, published data and in that lies the true answers.  The one
fact is that for all the theories over the years, we still treat over 1,000
American recreational divers a year for decompression sickness, so there
remains room for improvement.

      There is plenty of room, too, for everyone to collect more data to
support their hypotheses. I will leave you and your technical diver friends
to continue your work. I hope we see more superb papers like Richard Pyles.

      If the deep stop works for air dives to 100 - 130 ft., as well as it
does for technical divers, the results may be effective in helping to reduce
the incidence of neurological decompression sickness in recreational scuba
divers. So let's concentrate on helping the divers who will be the real
beneficiaries of our efforts.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Bruce R. Wienke [mailto:brw@la*.go*]
    Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 5:14 PM
    To: toverland@oi*.oc*.co*; tneuman@uc*.ed*; ryn@dc*.dn*.ca*;
Paul J. Sheffield Ph. D. (E-mail); Bennett, Peter; Orr, Dan;
v.flook@ab*.ac*.uk*; beyerstein@ao*.co*; rvann@da*.du*.ed*;
jlivingstone@na*.or*; jbram@na*.or*; p.oliver@na*.or*;
andihq@ao*.co*; oxygenengr@ao*.co*; PSAuerbach@ao*.co*;
rwhamilton@co*.co*; evincotter@cs*.co*; cborne@ea*.ne*;
walt.jaap@fw*.st*.fl*.us*; bturbo@ga*.ne*; dick@hy*.co*;
mwells@in*.ne*; pdenoble@da*.du*.ed*; alexakos@gu*.co*; trey@ne*.co*;
iantdhq@ix*.ne*.co*; moon0002@mc*.du*.ed*; emmerman@nb*.co*;
dave.dinsmore@no*.go*; boliver@sc*.co*; brianc@td*.co*;
gegstrom@uc*.ed*; kvanhoesen@uc*.ed*; brylske@ao*.co*
    Cc: deco@de*.or*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
    Subject: How About A Dan-Tech Deep Stops Workshop/Mtg


    Peter And Richard,



    How about a DAN-Tech Mtg on deep stops -- A to Z? Everybody

    pays their OWN way. This might also be a dynamite way to get more

    tech diving profiles into your Project Diving Exploration data banks



    to broaden the recreational sample. All would benefit -- probably DAN
the

    most, with all due respect.



    I can do (volunteer) the tech side and interface, and all the other

    coordination with DAN. And I am sure many others would step up too.



    And yes, we already have a tech side agenda.



    What do you say?


    Bruce Wienke


    Program Manager Computational Physics

    Counterterror And Countermeasures Dive Team Ldr



    PS -- UHMS Guys, maybe this is BETTER UHMS item?








    EARLIER MESSAGE TO PETER BENNETT WITH LIST EMAILS APPENDED



    Gentlemen,



    We don't agree with you, Peter Read below.



    Best regards as always,



    BW



    DEEP STOPS -- THE REAL STORY IN ADM



    Lists and Others,



    Check out the "Deep Stops" article in the next issue of Advanced Diver

    Magazine (ADM) for the real skinny on deeps stops and related deco

    technology.



    It was the tech diving community who pioneered, tested, and validated

    deep stops and related dual phase deco models (like RGBM, VPM, TBDM).

    Their 1000s of real dives on mixed gases at real depths are the

    living laboratory here. Not Haldane, nor Hill. And certainly not DAN.

    And our testing program was not recreational diving for goats in

    shallow water -- it was our collective asses, deep and long



    With fondest respect for DAN, I wish DAN would spend more time

    interacting with the tech community. All would benefit. The DAN

    Project Dive Exploration is a great data acquisition project that

    needs input from the real diving world.


    Same pretty much said for slow ascent rates.



    Bruce Wienke


    Program Manager Computational Physics

    Counterterror And Countermeasures Dive Team Leader

  ###########################################
  This message has been scanned for viruses.
  Visit DAN today at www.DiversAlertNetwork.org


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D022121900-26072002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Richard Pyle??????? This is a joke, right? Check with USN on =
WKPP=20
decompressions or across the hall at your own Duke University. Pyle is a =
bounce=20
diver and his stop methods do not hold up on real dives. Ours do, =
Bruce's do. We=20
have data, not BS, so does Bruce.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bennett, Peter=20
  [mailto:pbennett@da*.du*.ed*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 25,
2002 =
2:31=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Bruce R. Wienke'; toverland@oi*.oc*.co*;=20
  tneuman@uc*.ed*; ryn@dc*.dn*.ca*; Paul J. Sheffield Ph. D. (E-mail); =

  Bennett, Peter; Orr, Dan; v.flook@ab*.ac*.uk*; beyerstein@ao*.co*; =
Vann,=20
  Richard; jlivingstone@na*.or*; jbram@na*.or*; =
p.oliver@na*.or*;=20
  andihq@ao*.co*; oxygenengr@ao*.co*; PSAuerbach@ao*.co*;=20
  rwhamilton@co*.co*; evincotter@cs*.co*; cborne@ea*.ne*;=20
  walt.jaap@fw*.st*.fl*.us*; bturbo@ga*.ne*; dick@hy*.co*;=20
  mwells@in*.ne*; Denoble, Petar; alexakos@gu*.co*; trey@ne*.co*;=20
  iantdhq@ix*.ne*.co*; Moon, Richard; emmerman@nb*.co*; =
dave.dinsmore@no*.go*;=20
  boliver@sc*.co*; brianc@td*.co*; gegstrom@uc*.ed*; =
kvanhoesen@uc*.ed*;=20
  brylske@ao*.co*<BR><B>Cc:</B> deco@de*.or*;=20
  techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: How About A Dan-Tech =
Deep Stops=20
  Workshop/Mtg<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D482482714-25072002>Dear=20
  Bruce,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    We never claimed DAN =
discovered=20
  the deep stop but Haldane in 1906 and you have provided no evidence to =
the=20
  contrary. However I do understand from Richard Pyles' excellent =
presentation=20
  in Hawaii that technical divers have learned the value of the deep =
stop. =20
  More strength to them.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    You have a perfect right =
to not=20
  agree, that is what science is all about and why one tests hypotheses =
to see=20
  who is correct. Professor Marroni and I are now doing the research, in =
the=20
  ocean with divers (not goats like Haldane) to see who is correct so =
far as the=20
  recreational divers we deal with to 100 ft. or perhaps 130 ft (no =
technical=20
  divers).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    The <EM>Alert Diver =
</EM>article=20
  refers to but a very small part of an on-going study and extensive =
series of=20
  European <U>ocean </U>divers, from a large matrix of different ascent =
rates=20
  and stops, and measurement of tissue gas loadings with the UWATEC =
computer and=20
  precordial doppler for presence of bubbles. The current data will be =
presented=20
  at the EUBS meeting in Brussels in September. This will =
be <U>data=20
  </U>not hypothesis.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    Professor Marroni at the =
EUBS=20
  meeting in Malta 2000 presented two papers of other <U>data </U>which =
I very=20
  briefly referred to in my <EM>Alert Diver </EM>editorial of March 2001 =

  "Putting on the Brakes."  The papers were (A.) "Incidence of =
asymptomatic=20
  circulating venous gas emboli in unrestricted uneventful recreational =
diving,"=20
  and (B.) "Effects of the variation of ascent speed and profile on the=20
  production of circulating venous gas emboli and the incidence of DCS =
in=20
  compressed air diving.  Phase 1. Introduction of <U>extra deep =
stops</U>=20
  in the ascent profile without changing the original ascent=20
  rates."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    With the latter study, =
they were=20
  able to reduce high doppler bubble grades from 30.5% to zero with the =
addition=20
  of a deep stop.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    The technical dive =
community may=20
  claim they invented the deep stop as they wish, but the fact is that =
they have=20
  not been used by recreational scuba divers in general and Haldane did =
suggest=20
  them too, with the 2:1 ratio in 1906. We believe that a deep stop =
maybe of=20
  significant value for the recreational scuba diver too and are doing =
the=20
  research to see if that is correct and study the relationships =
between=20
  stops and ascent rates as well. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    I will gladly send =
Powell the=20
  documents I have used which relate the historical difference =
between Hill=20
  (linear) and Haldane (stops and 2:1 ratio) if he wishes to ask for=20
  them.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    Meanwhile we will =
continue our=20
  research and let the data speak for itself - there are lots of =
theories but=20
  precious little real human experiments and, published data and in that =
lies=20
  the true answers.  The one fact is that for all the theories over =
the=20
  years, we still treat over 1,000 American recreational divers a year =
for=20
  decompression sickness, so there remains room for=20
  improvement.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    There is plenty of room, =
too, for=20
  everyone to collect more data to support their hypotheses. I will =
leave you=20
  and your technical diver friends to continue your work. I hope we see =
more=20
  superb papers like Richard Pyles.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D482482714-25072002>    If the deep stop works =
for air=20
  dives to 100 - 130 ft., as well as it does for technical divers, the =
results=20
  may be effective in helping to reduce the incidence of neurological=20
  decompression sickness in recreational scuba divers. So let's =
concentrate on=20
  helping the divers who will be the real beneficiaries of our=20
  efforts.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bruce R.
Wienke=20
    [mailto:brw@la*.go*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 24, 2002
5:14=20
    PM<BR><B>To:</B> toverland@oi*.oc*.co*; tneuman@uc*.ed*;=20
    ryn@dc*.dn*.ca*; Paul J. Sheffield Ph. D. (E-mail); Bennett, Peter; =
Orr,=20
    Dan; v.flook@ab*.ac*.uk*; beyerstein@ao*.co*; rvann@da*.du*.ed*;=20
    jlivingstone@na*.or*; jbram@na*.or*; p.oliver@na*.or*;=20
    andihq@ao*.co*; oxygenengr@ao*.co*; PSAuerbach@ao*.co*;=20
    rwhamilton@co*.co*; evincotter@cs*.co*; cborne@ea*.ne*;=20
    walt.jaap@fw*.st*.fl*.us*; bturbo@ga*.ne*; =
dick@hy*.co*;=20
    mwells@in*.ne*; pdenoble@da*.du*.ed*; alexakos@gu*.co*; =
trey@ne*.co*;=20
    iantdhq@ix*.ne*.co*; moon0002@mc*.du*.ed*; emmerman@nb*.co*;=20
    dave.dinsmore@no*.go*; boliver@sc*.co*; brianc@td*.co*;=20
    gegstrom@uc*.ed*; kvanhoesen@uc*.ed*; =
brylske@ao*.co*<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    deco@de*.or*; techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
How About=20
    A Dan-Tech Deep Stops Workshop/Mtg<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <P>Peter And Richard, </P><BR>
    <P>How about a DAN-Tech Mtg on deep stops -- A to Z? Everybody </P>
    <P>pays their OWN way. This might also be a dynamite way to get more =
</P>
    <P>tech diving profiles into your Project Diving Exploration data =
banks=20
    </P><BR>
    <P>to broaden the recreational sample. All would benefit -- probably =
DAN the=20
    </P>
    <P>most, with all due respect. </P><BR>
    <P>I can do (volunteer) the tech side and interface, and all the =
other </P>
    <P>coordination with DAN. And I am sure many others would step up =
too.=20
    </P><BR>
    <P>And yes, we already have a tech side agenda. </P><BR>
    <P>What do you say? </P>
    <P></P>
    <P>Bruce Wienke </P>
    <P></P>
    <P>Program Manager Computational Physics </P>
    <P>Counterterror And Countermeasures Dive Team Ldr </P><BR>
    <P>PS -- UHMS Guys, maybe this is BETTER UHMS item? </P><BR>
    <P></P><BR><BR><BR>
    <P>EARLIER MESSAGE TO PETER BENNETT WITH LIST EMAILS APPENDED =
</P><BR>
    <P>Gentlemen, </P><BR>
    <P>We don't agree with you, Peter Read below. </P><BR>
    <P>Best regards as always, </P><BR>
    <P>BW </P><BR>
    <P>DEEP STOPS -- THE REAL STORY IN ADM </P><BR>
    <P>Lists and Others, </P><BR>
    <P>Check out the "Deep Stops" article in the next issue of Advanced =
Diver=20
    </P>
    <P>Magazine (ADM) for the real skinny on deeps stops and related =
deco </P>
    <P>technology. </P><BR>
    <P>It was the tech diving community who pioneered, tested, and =
validated=20
</P>
    <P>deep stops and related dual phase deco models (like RGBM, VPM, =
TBDM).=20
</P>
    <P>Their 1000s of real dives on mixed gases at real depths are the =
</P>
    <P>living laboratory here. Not Haldane, nor Hill. And certainly not =
DAN.=20
</P>
    <P>And our testing program was not recreational diving for goats in =
</P>
    <P>shallow water -- it was our collective asses, deep and long =
</P><BR>
    <P>With fondest respect for DAN, I wish DAN would spend more time =
</P>
    <P>interacting with the tech community. All would benefit. The DAN =
</P>
    <P>Project Dive Exploration is a great data acquisition project that =
</P>
    <P>needs input from the real diving world. </P>
    <P></P>
    <P>Same pretty much said for slow ascent rates. </P><BR>
    <P>Bruce Wienke </P>
    <P></P>
    <P>Program Manager Computational Physics </P>
    <P>Counterterror And Countermeasures Dive Team Leader =
</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>###########################################<BR>This=20
  message has been scanned for viruses.<BR>Visit DAN today at=20
 
www.DiversAlertNetwork.org</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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