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Yeah David, I guess we do disagree. I just think it's too easy to kill yourself while diving. I think that by checking credentials on boats and dive shops that they can cut down on the accidents and deaths. I don't agree with the "sue craze" and I think there are way too many suits out there. If they check cards and self regulate then there is no reason to sue. Art. -----Original Message----- From: davidsmith95@ea*.ne* [mailto:davidsmith95@ea*.ne*] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 5:02 PM To: Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*; techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: GUE and Drivers License Art, I have to disagree with you on this one. Perhaps I just am more disgusted with this "sue craze" than you, but I don't think the suits you mentioned were the "correct thing to do". When we are talking simple, recreational dives (in other words, no special accommodations or "special" safety plans required, I think the boat charter is just a ride to an anchor spot for a period of time. I don't think the operator should be responsible because some idiot jumped off the back and got hurt. Now with technical diving or drift diving, I think there is a higher degree of coordination required, and perhaps now there might be some responsibility on the charter operators part. But I would see that more to protect the other divers, not the so-called "idiot" (i.e. everyone else gets stranded while the boat takes care of the other person having a problem) As far as air fills. I have no issue with any dive shop checking credentials. I have been in dive shops that won't fill doubles without a full cave card. Whatever floats their boat. But I think it is ludicrous to suggest they are liable if they don't check a C-card. It is only air after all!! ;) David E. Smith -----Original Message----- From: Art.Paltz@R2*.CO* [mailto:Art.Paltz@R2*.CO*] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 8:55 AM To: techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: RE: GUE and Drivers License On the issue of a dive boat or dive shop checking certification cards. Not getting into the issue of GUE being accepted. If dive boats or dive chops don't check for certification then I think they are being reckless. If a dive boat allows someone with no training but has all the latest and greatest dive gear board the boat and do a dive and dies then they are irresponsible and will get sued. That's the correct thing to do. If a dive shop allows someone to walk in the door, talk the talk and get scuba fills and then goes out and gets them selves killed while diving without proper training, they are also going to get sued. That would also be irresponsible. Personally I hate this "sue craze" we have in the US but this is one time when it is warranted. If you build your own mixing station, mix your own tanks, board your own boat and get killed then you are at fault. Maybe I'm reading your email wrong but are you suggesting that dive boats should not check certification before a dive and that dive shops should not check for certification before filling scuba tanks? Hey, lets not check drivers licenses or passports anymore. Why do we require someone to have a pilots license before flying? Come one, if I'm reading your email wrong I sincerely apologize. If GUE is a recognized agency (whatever that means) and has insurance then there is no reason not to accept their cards. The boats and shops need to guard themselves against getting people killed and getting sued. If an accident happens and the boat or shop gets hauled into court they will need to show that they had ample reasons to believe that this person had the proper training to perform the dive that killed them. Now, I also do believe that a shop or boat has the right to refuse certain certification cards/levels. If I owned a boat and didn't recognize a certain certification then I wouldn't let them dive. Other groups do it all the time. I believe (and I'm sure George will correct me if I'm wrong) that the WKPP will not accept certain certifications from certain agencies. They have the right to do this and I agree with it. Art. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Radov [mailto:NRadov@ax*.co*] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:52 PM To: Udo Rotmistrenko Cc: quest@gu*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com Subject: Re: GUE and Drivers License The dive boat issues have already been beat to death but I'm a little puzzled over this concern over whether or not NE dive shops will "honor" GUE certification cards for gas fills. I used to get trimix fills from CA dive shops without having any "trimix" card at all. Now I have a GUE card but no one has ever asked to see it. In my experience if you walk up to the gas mixer and tell him exactly what you want like you know what you're talking about no one will give you any hassle. If you really want to get some changes made then join with a few friends and set up your own fill station. Commercial gas suppliers don't care about silly c-cards. Do all your own tank fills, buy all your gear mail order, and make sure the dive shop monkeys that have treated you badly know why they are no longer getting your business. Money talks and when they see they are losing money attitudes will change real quick. On the other hand, if you guys continue to put up with crap then that is what you will continue to get. Do you enjoy pounding your head against the wall? As for GUE having liability insurance (and it does have insurance), the only reason shop owners or boat captains should even care about that is if a GUE instructor were to teach a class using their facilities. If shops and boats are turning you guys away as paying customers they are just trying to sell you more classes or advance a particular political agenda. Insurance, or any hypothetical lack thereof, is not the real reason and using it as an excuse is just a pathetic attempt to confuse the issue and lead the misinformed astray. Even prospective GUE students should not care whether their instructors have insurance or not, and any student who does care is really barking up the wrong tree. We are not going into classes with the fear that we might die. -Nick -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to `techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'. -- Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'. 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