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George,

Having worked with Andrew for the better part of the last year, and =
having seen the evolution of this class in my view AG has it just =
right..  While both you and I have the luxury of other revenue sources, =
and I think we all agree that absent GUE the status of dive instruction =
is atrocious.  The approach that Andrew had adopted is from his past =
experiences in pilot training and flight school..  In that scenario =
pilots train for failure after failure in simulators so if the shit hits =
the fan they have the opportunity to train on correcting the problem in =
a controlled environment.  AG developed the classes based upon the same =
foundation.  You simulate failure in 20' and build the building blocks, =
the foundation and show the students the bar that they will ultimately =
need to achieve..  Realize that as the Fundamentals class evolved it was =
a byproduct from students that were signing up for the tech1 classes, =
and they had been accustomed to the industry standard of paying lip =
service to quality instruction, and sleep walking through the classes.  =
The tech1 class was a GIANT wake up call, and as a result of the =
inordinate number of wash-outs in the tech program AG & JJ decided to =
*strongly encourage* <wink-wink> that all prospective tech students take =
this class..

What is first demonstrated is the proper skills needed to secure the =
foundation of a solid diver.  Things that most of the divers on the WKPP =
take for granted, such as balance, trim and buoyancy control are =
demonstrated.  We spend an extraordinary amount of time reconfiguring =
gear and explaining every aspect of the overall system.  We spend =
countless hours explaining why every thing is the way it is, and most =
importantly we explain WHY..

For certain no one would ever dream of showing up at Wakulla with some =
completely stroked out rig, but by in large that is because they have =
had the benefit of learning first hand from you and JJ..  Most that =
aren't part of the WKPP only know what they see on the net, and as you =
know most of it is bullshit, so the Fundamentals class is there first =
*real* exposure to the information..

Each step along the way we demonstrate the proper manner to do the =
skills, then we allow the students to try it themselves.  By videotaping =
this as we do, we then do a thorough and very candid de-brief..  None of =
the PADI positive reinforcement crap, we tell the students what is =
needed to get to the *bar*, and how to go about doing it..  Usually =
trim, buoyancy and balance is a mess, so by squaring away their harness, =
using the proper tanks, eliminating all the useless crap that the dive =
industry has sold them prior to the class the student sees and feels for =
themselves why their balance and trim were off, they realize in 20' why =
buoyancy is problematic when we ask them to do the basic 4:  Reg R & R.  =
Reg remove and switch to back up, Mask flood and clear and Mask R & R..  =
We make them do it in 20' and clearly demonstrate the buoyancy control =
issues..  More often then not they either face plant or surface once =
their mask is off..  And FTR, we don't fuck with them, they take it off =
themselves..  In the tech classes, some *problems* may occur, but more =
often then not they are self-created  ;-)

I hear you are joining is soon for one of these classes, I think you'll =
have an eye opener..

Later

=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: George Irvine=20
  To: scuba@md*.co* ; trey@ne*.co* ; Capt JT ; =
techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
  Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:01 PM
  Subject: RE: Dir fundamentals - Here is the point!


  Ted, as far as I know the GUE guys go to the pool before they risk =
getting into the water with unknowns. If they did not in this case, it =
was simply because Andrew never suspected that this would be an issue =
with these guys.

  I do not agree with GUE's method of fucking with people in the water, =
but I don't have any alternative ideas on how to test people for falling =
apart under stress. I also disagree with wasting time proving to people =
what does not work, I simply take the attitude that they only need to =
see the right way, but then I can only teach people who are already good =
and highly motivated to do what I ask - dive instructors have to deal =
with everyone.

  I can tell if somebody is going to fall apart under stress when I cave =
dive with them, but at that point it is generally too late to do =
anything about it ( I don't think anything can be done about it ) and I =
just don't dive with them again.

  My opinion on dive instruction is that the student needs to dive his =
ass off and practice, do dives with instructors for fine tuning, and =
that 99% of the information side is classroom ( like gases and such). =
That is not too cost effective for the student or profitable for the =
instructor, nor is it time effective. But, I am not in the business, and =
I have to defer to whatever Andrew and JJ can come up with,  whether or =
not I agree with it.

  The biggest obstacle all of you instructors face is that you dive all =
the time, your clients do not.=20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Ted Green [mailto:scuba@md*.co*]
    Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:45 PM
    To: trey@ne*.co*; Capt JT; techdiver@aquanaut.com
    Subject: Dir fundamentals - Here is the point!


    From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*>

    > Ted, I agree 100%. This is total bullshit.
    >=20
    > The suit needs to have the proper garment under it and it needs > =
to be filled to comfort, not squeezing. That is pure idiocy. If you > =
guys did anything other than bounce dives, you might appreciate > how =
the suit is supposed to be worn, or learn the hard way what > problems =
are produced by tight suits, as is all kinds of skin > damage and DCS. =
You never let the suit squeeze, and if it
    > were about to due to some failure, you go up.=20

    To all,
    A couple of points:

    As I originally said, "you have a skill problem, or you don't =
understand how to operate a dry suit properly If your not putting gas in =
your drysuit until you hit the bottom". The above is also true if your =
using the suit for buoyancy control or you can't maintain depth or =
attitude at a deco stop because of to much gas in the suit.

    Andrew, do you make it a habit of hadicapping people YOU HAVE NEVER =
BEEN IN THE WATER WITH BEFORE!=20

    Andrew, do you mean to tell me that YOU can't figure out if someone =
is using their drysuit for buoyancy just by looking at their wing and =
drysuit while there diving?

    Andrew, do you mean to tell me that you lack the ability to =
communicate to a diver underwater that they need to let gas out of their =
drysuit and control their buoyancy with their wing?

    Andrew, when you teach basic scuba, do you tie the students hands =
together so that they have to swim with their feet?

    Andrew, here is something you could learn from my 22 years of =
teaching diving and 10 years of teaching technical diving. Take divers =
whom you have never dove with on a short 10 minute dive before trying to =
tech them anything. Observe their basic diving skills. Then in a =
friendly and positive manner correct deficiencies before trying to teach =
them anything new. People generally learn better when they are =
comfortable with their equipment and their instructor, not when they are =
trying to over come the equipment and survive the instruction!=20

    George, am I right, or am I right!




Ted Green
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dive Charter Boat: O.C. Diver
                   Sunset Marina in Ocean City, Maryland
                   http://www.ocdiver.com
                   410.742.1992  800.637.2102
                   Fax 410.749.9410
"Diving the Atlantic coast from Cape May NJ to Cape Charles VA."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>George,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Having worked with Andrew for the =
better part of=20
the last year, and having seen the evolution of this class in my view AG =
has it=20
just right..  While both you and I have the luxury of other revenue =

sources, and I think we all agree that absent GUE the status of dive =
instruction=20
is atrocious.  The approach that Andrew had adopted is from his =
past=20
experiences in pilot training and flight school..  In that scenario =
pilots=20
train for failure after failure in simulators so if the shit hits the =
fan they=20
have the opportunity to train on correcting the problem in a controlled=20
environment.  AG developed the classes based upon the same=20
foundation.  You simulate failure in 20' and build the building =
blocks, the=20
foundation and show the students the bar that they will ultimately need =
to=20
achieve..  Realize that as the Fundamentals class evolved it was a=20
byproduct from students that were signing up for the tech1 classes, and =
they had=20
been accustomed to the industry standard of paying lip service to =
quality=20
instruction, and sleep walking through the classes.  The tech1 =
class was a=20
GIANT wake up call, and as a result of the inordinate number of =
wash-outs in the=20
tech program AG & JJ decided to *strongly =
encourage* <wink-wink>=20
that all prospective tech students take this class..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What is first demonstrated is the =
proper skills=20
needed to secure the foundation of a solid diver.  Things that most =
of the=20
divers on the WKPP take for granted, such as balance, trim and buoyancy =
control=20
are demonstrated.  We spend an extraordinary amount of time =
reconfiguring=20
gear and explaining every aspect of the overall system.  We spend =
countless=20
hours explaining why every thing is the way it is, and most importantly =
we=20
explain WHY..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For certain no one would ever dream of =
showing up=20
at Wakulla with some completely stroked out rig, but by in large that is =
because=20
they have had the benefit of learning first hand from you and JJ..  =
Most=20
that aren't part of the WKPP only know what they see on the net, and as =
you know=20
most of it is bullshit, so the Fundamentals class is there first *real* =
exposure=20
to the information..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Each step along the way we demonstrate =
the proper=20
manner to do the skills, then we allow the students to try it =
themselves. =20
By videotaping this as we do, we then do a thorough and very candid=20
de-brief..  None of the PADI positive reinforcement crap, we tell =
the=20
students what is needed to get to the *bar*, and how to go about doing=20
it..  Usually trim, buoyancy and balance is a mess, so by squaring =
away=20
their harness, using the proper tanks, eliminating all the useless crap =
that the=20
dive industry has sold them prior to the class the student sees and =
feels for=20
themselves why their balance and trim were off, they realize in 20' why =
buoyancy=20
is problematic when we ask them to do the basic 4:  Reg R & =
R. =20
Reg remove and switch to back up, Mask flood and clear and Mask R &=20
R..  We make them do it in 20' and clearly demonstrate the buoyancy =
control=20
issues..  More often then not they either face plant or surface =
once their=20
mask is off..  And FTR, we don't fuck with them, they take it off=20
themselves..  In the tech classes, some *problems* may occur, =
but more=20
often then not they are self-created  ;-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I hear you are joining is soon for one =
of these=20
classes, I think you'll have an eye opener..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Later</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dgirvine@be*.ne* =
href=3D"mailto:girvine@be*.ne*">George=20
  Irvine</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dscuba@md*.co*=20
  href=3D"mailto:scuba@md*.co*">scuba@md-scuba.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dtrey@ne*.co* =
href=3D"mailto:trey@ne*.co*">trey@netdor.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dcaptjt@mi*.co* =
href=3D"mailto:captjt@mi*.co*">Capt JT</A> ;=20
  <A title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 =
6:01 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Dir fundamentals
- =
Here is=20
  the point!</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Ted,=20
  as far as I know the GUE guys go to the pool before they risk getting =
into the=20
  water with unknowns. If they did not in this case, it was simply =
because=20
  Andrew never suspected that this would be an issue with these=20
  guys.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I do=20
  not agree with GUE's method of fucking with people in the water, but I =
don't=20
  have any alternative ideas on how to test people for falling apart =
under=20
  stress. I also disagree with wasting time proving to people what does =
not=20
  work, I simply take the attitude that they only need to see the right =
way, but=20
  then I can only teach people who are already good and highly motivated =
to do=20
  what I ask - dive instructors have to deal with =
everyone.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
  can tell if somebody is going to fall apart under stress when I cave =
dive with=20
  them, but at that point it is generally too late to do anything about =
it ( I=20
  don't think anything can be done about it ) and I just don't dive with =
them=20
  again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>My=20
  opinion on dive instruction is that the student needs to dive his ass =
off and=20
  practice, do dives with instructors for fine tuning, and that 99% of =
the=20
  information side is classroom ( like gases and such). That is not too =
cost=20
  effective for the student or profitable for the instructor, nor is it =
time=20
  effective. But, I am not in the business, and I have to defer to =
whatever=20
  Andrew and JJ can come up with,  whether or not I agree with=20
  it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The=20
  biggest obstacle all of you instructors face is that you dive all the =
time,=20
  your clients do not. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Ted Green=20
    [mailto:scuba@md*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 =
8:45=20
    PM<BR><B>To:</B> trey@ne*.co*; Capt JT;=20
    techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Dir fundamentals - Here
is =
the=20
    point!<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>From: "George Irvine"=20
    <girvine@be*.ne*><BR><BR><?color><?param =
0000,0000,0000>>=20
    Ted, I agree 100%. This is total bullshit.<BR>> <BR>> =
<?/color>The=20
    suit needs to have the proper garment under it and it needs > to =
be=20
    filled to comfort, not squeezing. That is pure idiocy. If you > =
guys did=20
    anything other than bounce dives, you might appreciate > how the =
suit is=20
    supposed to be worn, or learn the hard way what > problems are =
produced=20
    by tight suits, as is all kinds of skin > damage and DCS. You =
never let=20
    the suit squeeze, and if it<BR>> were about to due to some =
failure, you=20
    go up. <BR><BR>To all,<BR>A couple of points:<BR><BR>As I
originally =
said,=20
    "you have a skill problem, or you don't understand how to operate a =
dry suit=20
    properly If your not putting gas in your drysuit until you hit the =
bottom".=20
    The above is also true if your using the suit for buoyancy control =
or you=20
    can't maintain depth or attitude at a deco stop because of to much =
gas in=20
    the suit.<BR><BR>Andrew, do you make it a habit of hadicapping =
people <B>YOU=20
    HAVE NEVER BEEN IN THE WATER WITH BEFORE! </B><BR><BR>Andrew, do
you =
mean to=20
    tell me that <B>YOU </B>can't figure out if someone is using their =
drysuit=20
    for buoyancy just by looking at their wing and drysuit while there=20
    diving?<BR><BR>Andrew, do you mean to tell me that you lack the =
ability to=20
    communicate to a diver underwater that they need to let gas out of =
their=20
    drysuit and control their buoyancy with their wing?<BR><BR>Andrew, =
when you=20
    teach basic scuba, do you tie the students hands together so that =
they have=20
    to swim with their feet?<BR><BR>Andrew, here is something you could =
learn=20
    from my 22 years of teaching diving and 10 years of teaching =
technical=20
    diving. Take divers whom you have never dove with on a short 10 =
minute dive=20
    before trying to tech them anything. Observe their basic diving =
skills. Then=20
    in a friendly and positive manner correct deficiencies before trying =
to=20
    teach them anything new. People generally learn better when they are =

    comfortable with their equipment and their instructor, not when they =
are=20
    trying to over come the equipment and survive the instruction!=20
    <BR><BR>George, am I right, or am I
right!<BR><BR><BR><BR><PRE>Ted =
Green
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dive Charter Boat: O.C. Diver
                   Sunset Marina in Ocean City, Maryland
                   http://www.ocdiver.com
                   410.742.1992  800.637.2102
                   Fax 410.749.9410
"Diving the Atlantic coast from Cape May NJ to Cape Charles VA."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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