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Ted, as far as I know the GUE guys go to the pool before they risk getting
into the water with unknowns. If they did not in this case, it was simply
because Andrew never suspected that this would be an issue with these guys.

I do not agree with GUE's method of fucking with people in the water, but I
don't have any alternative ideas on how to test people for falling apart
under stress. I also disagree with wasting time proving to people what does
not work, I simply take the attitude that they only need to see the right
way, but then I can only teach people who are already good and highly
motivated to do what I ask - dive instructors have to deal with everyone.

I can tell if somebody is going to fall apart under stress when I cave dive
with them, but at that point it is generally too late to do anything about
it ( I don't think anything can be done about it ) and I just don't dive
with them again.

My opinion on dive instruction is that the student needs to dive his ass off
and practice, do dives with instructors for fine tuning, and that 99% of the
information side is classroom ( like gases and such). That is not too cost
effective for the student or profitable for the instructor, nor is it time
effective. But, I am not in the business, and I have to defer to whatever
Andrew and JJ can come up with,  whether or not I agree with it.

The biggest obstacle all of you instructors face is that you dive all the
time, your clients do not.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ted Green [mailto:scuba@md*.co*]
  Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:45 PM
  To: trey@ne*.co*; Capt JT; techdiver@aquanaut.com
  Subject: Dir fundamentals - Here is the point!


  From: "George Irvine" <girvine@be*.ne*>

  > Ted, I agree 100%. This is total bullshit.
  >
  > The suit needs to have the proper garment under it and it needs > to be
filled to comfort, not squeezing. That is pure idiocy. If you > guys did
anything other than bounce dives, you might appreciate > how the suit is
supposed to be worn, or learn the hard way what > problems are produced by
tight suits, as is all kinds of skin > damage and DCS. You never let the
suit squeeze, and if it
  > were about to due to some failure, you go up.

  To all,
  A couple of points:

  As I originally said, "you have a skill problem, or you don't understand
how to operate a dry suit properly If your not putting gas in your drysuit
until you hit the bottom". The above is also true if your using the suit for
buoyancy control or you can't maintain depth or attitude at a deco stop
because of to much gas in the suit.

  Andrew, do you make it a habit of hadicapping people YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN
IN THE WATER WITH BEFORE!

  Andrew, do you mean to tell me that YOU can't figure out if someone is
using their drysuit for buoyancy just by looking at their wing and drysuit
while there diving?

  Andrew, do you mean to tell me that you lack the ability to communicate to
a diver underwater that they need to let gas out of their drysuit and
control their buoyancy with their wing?

  Andrew, when you teach basic scuba, do you tie the students hands together
so that they have to swim with their feet?

  Andrew, here is something you could learn from my 22 years of teaching
diving and 10 years of teaching technical diving. Take divers whom you have
never dove with on a short 10 minute dive before trying to tech them
anything. Observe their basic diving skills. Then in a friendly and positive
manner correct deficiencies before trying to teach them anything new. People
generally learn better when they are comfortable with their equipment and
their instructor, not when they are trying to over come the equipment and
survive the instruction!

  George, am I right, or am I right!




Ted Green
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dive Charter Boat: O.C. Diver
                   Sunset Marina in Ocean City, Maryland
                   http://www.ocdiver.com
                   410.742.1992  800.637.2102
                   Fax 410.749.9410
"Diving the Atlantic coast from Cape May NJ to Cape Charles VA."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Ted,=20
as far as I know the GUE guys go to the pool before they risk getting =
into the=20
water with unknowns. If they did not in this case, it was simply because =
Andrew=20
never suspected that this would be an issue with these =
guys.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I do=20
not agree with GUE's method of fucking with people in the water, but I =
don't=20
have any alternative ideas on how to test people for falling apart under =
stress.=20
I also disagree with wasting time proving to people what does not work, =
I simply=20
take the attitude that they only need to see the right way, but then I =
can only=20
teach people who are already good and highly motivated to do what I ask =
- dive=20
instructors have to deal with everyone.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I can=20
tell if somebody is going to fall apart under stress when I cave dive =
with them,=20
but at that point it is generally too late to do anything about it ( I =
don't=20
think anything can be done about it ) and I just don't dive with them=20
again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>My=20
opinion on dive instruction is that the student needs to dive his ass =
off and=20
practice, do dives with instructors for fine tuning, and that 99% of the =

information side is classroom ( like gases and such). That is not too =
cost=20
effective for the student or profitable for the instructor, nor is it =
time=20
effective. But, I am not in the business, and I have to defer to =
whatever Andrew=20
and JJ can come up with,  whether or not I agree with=20
it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D611065000-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
biggest obstacle all of you instructors face is that you dive all the =
time, your=20
clients do not. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Ted Green=20
  [mailto:scuba@md*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:45 =

  PM<BR><B>To:</B> trey@ne*.co*; Capt JT;=20
  techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Dir fundamentals - Here is
=
the=20
  point!<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>From: "George Irvine"=20
  <girvine@be*.ne*><BR><BR><?color><?param =
0000,0000,0000>> Ted,=20
  I agree 100%. This is total bullshit.<BR>> <BR>> <?/color>The =
suit needs=20
  to have the proper garment under it and it needs > to be filled to =
comfort,=20
  not squeezing. That is pure idiocy. If you > guys did anything =
other than=20
  bounce dives, you might appreciate > how the suit is supposed to be =
worn,=20
  or learn the hard way what > problems are produced by tight suits, =
as is=20
  all kinds of skin > damage and DCS. You never let the suit squeeze, =
and if=20
  it<BR>> were about to due to some failure, you go up. <BR><BR>To =
all,<BR>A=20
  couple of points:<BR><BR>As I originally said, "you have a skill =
problem, or=20
  you don't understand how to operate a dry suit properly If your not =
putting=20
  gas in your drysuit until you hit the bottom". The above is also true =
if your=20
  using the suit for buoyancy control or you can't maintain depth or =
attitude at=20
  a deco stop because of to much gas in the suit.<BR><BR>Andrew, do you =
make it=20
  a habit of hadicapping people <B>YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN IN THE WATER WITH =
BEFORE!=20
  </B><BR><BR>Andrew, do you mean to tell me that <B>YOU
</B>can't =
figure out if=20
  someone is using their drysuit for buoyancy just by looking at their =
wing and=20
  drysuit while there diving?<BR><BR>Andrew, do you mean to tell me that =
you=20
  lack the ability to communicate to a diver underwater that they need =
to let=20
  gas out of their drysuit and control their buoyancy with their=20
  wing?<BR><BR>Andrew, when you teach basic scuba, do you tie the =
students hands=20
  together so that they have to swim with their feet?<BR><BR>Andrew, =
here is=20
  something you could learn from my 22 years of teaching diving and 10 =
years of=20
  teaching technical diving. Take divers whom you have never dove with =
on a=20
  short 10 minute dive before trying to tech them anything. Observe =
their basic=20
  diving skills. Then in a friendly and positive manner correct =
deficiencies=20
  before trying to teach them anything new. People generally learn =
better when=20
  they are comfortable with their equipment and their instructor, not =
when they=20
  are trying to over come the equipment and survive the instruction!=20
  <BR><BR>George, am I right, or am I
right!<BR><BR><BR><BR><PRE>Ted =
Green
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dive Charter Boat: O.C. Diver
                   Sunset Marina in Ocean City, Maryland
                   http://www.ocdiver.com
                   410.742.1992  800.637.2102
                   Fax 410.749.9410
"Diving the Atlantic coast from Cape May NJ to Cape Charles VA."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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