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I agree completely on DUI service - it is the worst in the business. They
also screw up most orders. The last time I called them, they had some
complete asshole in the service department with a huge attitude problem.
That is why I send all of my stuff to another company to customize, change
seals, etc. I still order the new suits from them, but just use a serial
number that they can match up to make it identical to my others. I doubt I
will need any more suits any time soon , since I have four perfect ones, but
if I do I will have to deal with them .
As soon as somebody else can make the same thing, that will be the place to
get one, but in the meantime they are the only game in town. Other
reinventions of the wheel and solving of non problems with bigger problems
abound.
Once again, I will talk to Andrew and see if we can all get on the same
page. In the meantime, what I see is everyone misinterpreting everything
that comes out of GUE, and every time I do talk to Andrew or JJ about some
nonsense that is attributed to GUE, it turns out to be a misinterpretation.
-----Original Message-----
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:07 PM
To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: drysuit answers
If I twisted it then everyone in the class did, we did not ask for DS
instruction, it came with the class. I think at least 2 in the class had DUI
suits, so far the company sucks for service. Cobb had a custom suit ordered
and they tried to pass one off the rack the first time and then they sent
him this one, which is off. We have had others order them and the wrong
stuff shows up, so far I am ahead of the game, I bought the cheapest DS
there is and its a POS, I have 2 with less than 1000 for the both, I don't
have to send it back and have it get lost or the wrong one sent back or
anything, because I know its a POS, just like everyone elses. But I saved
nearly 4000 in 2 suits, a company is only as good as its service department.
Does the suit make the diver or does the diver make the suit, chief you're
making way to much of this. Before I sent out the post everyone in the class
(but one and he did not object to the DS stuff ) approved it as being the
facts of the class. So they heard the same stuff I did. If you don't like
the way he is teaching the class that is not my problem. I am not turning
anything into an argument, just the facts of the class. Did you read all of
the email post on DS answers. Under each statement is the name of the person
who wrote it and it is exactly what we all heard in the class, just the
facts.
At 07:32 PM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:
No, what is normal is that you completely twisted it around got BS
called on it so decided to turn it into an argument based on resentment. Let
me remind you where all this comes from in the first place: W K P P. What
is also normal is that when I asked Andrew about this, I discovered that
once again what he said and and what got across are worlds apart.
Andrew is a nice guy, he is charismatic, he can tell you that you are
screwing up and you will be ok with it. I am not that way, but then I do not
have to be - not in the business. You or anyone else can take or leave what
I say, but will eventually find out that I am always correct.
You know, it is really funny. I have been doing this forever, have the
access to the best information from the best sources, can afford to buy a
bunch of drysuits and have them all be wrong until I find the right one,
have watched hundreds of people on my team waste their money on all the
bullshit before they ended up spending the money in the end to get the right
stuff, but you guys don't even have one working suit and yet you want to
tell me I am full of shit when I try to save you the time and trouble.
The fact is you don't want to agree with anything I ever say, and that
is fine, but you are the one who has been diving all this time and still
asking about a suit, not me. I know exactly what works best. You can go bet
your money against me all you want, and just end up spending the money
twice.
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:29 PM
To: trey@ne*.co*; trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: drysuit answers
Just reporting the facts of the class, if the class says one thing
and you say another then things are normal.
At 06:17 PM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:
Real simple - who has been doing it longer and who is new at it. I
am getting real sick of the bullshit. The real story is the nobody can make
any money on the TLS 350 so nobody wants to promote it, so we have to listen
to all the bullshit reinventions of the wheel that show up once a week. The
other brands have giant margins relative to DUI. You figure it out. You
figure out if I am some superhuman breed or if I just happen to know what I
am talking about, as painful as that decision is for you.
We (WKPP) get no special break from DUI and neither do the
dealers. I could care less what the suit costs, and I don't care what the
margins are. JJ asked me what I would want in a suit if I could have
anything at all made.He gets no love from DUI and no breaks. I told him
exactly like the TLS 350. JJ wants to add a seal protector - good idea, but
that is about it for what should be different.
The suits do not need to have "stretch" material, they are not
supposed to be dove tight to your body, you are not supposed to have fifty
layers of bullshit on underneath, you are supposed to have a perfect set of
C-4 and nothing else, you are supposed to have the pockets and the valves
where I have them, and you are supposed to take care of the thing properly
like anything else.
JT, you are unbelievable sometimes. You are the one who is always
bitching about sales tactics of the dive business, and you are always the
first to fall for them, and the first to ignore the thinking that has
produced the best track record in diving.
-----Original Message-----
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:46 PM
To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: drysuit answers
I expected an email from you on this topic, so that puts me in a
tough spot, who to believe.
At 05:37 AM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:
JT, this is not the case. Look on the WKPP site and tell me my
suit has air bubbles. I can do anything with that suit. Maybe you should
advise the Navy SEALs why they should not use the suit I use. I can reach
anything I need to reach in my suit with C-4 under it, and I have
significantly more muscle mass than you guys.
The correct answer is get a custom suit and learn buoyancy
control. I have four and they all work perfectly.
-----Original Message-----
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:04 PM
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: drysuit answers
I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit statements. Below is
compiled emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope this helps
everyone with their questions.
The self donning with the telescoping torso causes to many air
pockets and is only there because it is needed for you to get into the
suit, it does not stretch. I do believe he said the TLS 350 also wears out
extremely fast.
Andy's is making a DS that is much to what everyone really
needs, self donning, stretchable, in a shell that is durable. Dave Dalton
has one and so does Todd, but theirs have not had the upgrades of the new
ones coming out, if I remember right.
I have a neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that it has
been down to 400ft a bunch of times it is a high dollar crushed neoprene ;-0
hopefully some of these others guys will answer about the suits, they were
there just like me.
JT
JT,
I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... diaganol
zipper entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all last year?
I'm curious as I don't recall ever hearing any of the GUE/WKPP folks mention
anything other than DUI previously.
BD
The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the "Ultra",
his lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have
the "Extreme" which is the heavier grade that Andrew
likes (but not the cordura, the heaviest).
The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that
when you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit
restricts your motion (same for the DUI
undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in
panels under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to
the "rag doll" design of the sleeves on the DUI & most
others. This gives better freedom of movement. He
also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal
zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't
fold when you bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to
the DS-3 that we have, due to flex of the zipper when
doing a valve drill.
BTW, Andrew is GUE, not (as far as I know) WKPP.
Dave Dalton
I have the DUI 450 and noticed the following things in the
class-
-When the backplate is in the proper position the telescope
flaps stick out
and catches your long hose and light cable. I was wearing my
plate way too
low and the belt was holding the "skirt" in and never noticed it
before. And
when you have the proper amount of air in the suit (i.e.
practically none)
the suit does not telescope. I know, I have one.
-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut like they would be on a
shirt or
jacket, there is not enough material to allow reaching your
valves,
particularly with the thick cordura the 450 has.
-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the exhaust
valve in exactly
the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting
on/off your
shoulder.
I suppose that DUI could add the material to the armpits to
allow reaching
the valves, but this would mean dealing with DUI, and that would
mean pretty
much not having a drysuit for a period of several months. But I
suppose when
you are sending it back to get the various leaks fixed that DUI
suits are
plagued with, you can have the mods done then.
From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers
would:
-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water like
crushed
neoprene.
-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow reaching the
valves.
-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low as to
get stressed
when you bend over.
-Velcro seal bellows pockets on both sides cut so your hand can
slip into
them without the top folding in, equipped with grommets for a
belay line.
-An exhaust valve on the outside of the forearm rather than the
upper-outside of the arm.
-An inflate valve which has restricted air flow. This is for the
event of a
stuck DS inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from
putting too much
air in the DS to begin with.
-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top of the fin pocket
rubs.
-P valve located on the leg more towards the inseam than
sticking our front.
-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels in the armpits and
crotch
(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps development of
stretchable
thinsulate.
The goals are:
-To be able to reach your valves with no air in the suit.
-To be streamlined yet flexible.
-To be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) position.
-To have large, easy access pockets on both sides.
Currently this suit does not exist. The folks with the cheapest
DUI 200
(i.e. The model without the telescope) seem to come closest to
the ideal,
near as I can tell, if you get the purge valve in the right
place and the
correct pockets installed. The Andy's have the crotch and armpit
panels but
you have to have a fair amount of drag-producing trilam material
to allow
you movement and their pockets suck.
But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I would try to
find one
which incorporates as many of the above features as possible,
with the
number one priority of being able to reach your valves with no
air in the
suit.
I may have missed something here or not interpreted correctly,
gang please
correct me where I am wrong.
Jim Cobb
Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is Dive
Concepts in
California and Andy's.
I have a DUI CF200 with the telescoping body. I asked him about
the DS and
the only bad thing, which we all know, is the absorption of
water and time
to dry. It does not develop the folds as the Trilamines do. It
is more
durable then the type trilamines. He stated that two divers,
same setup and
scooters, the crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from the
trilamine.
Crashed Neoprene down side again is weight and time to dry
especially if you
are traveling.
The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There a
modification to
the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the body instead of
the
traditional lower on the right side.
The important part to all this is movement or motion. As one
raises the arm
in both the undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the restriction
of the
movement is the issue under the arm pit. That is wear the
stretch points and
restriction in movement occurs. The ability to reach the valves.
(See David
Dalton comment on the panel - important to relieve the restrict
issue.)
Dive Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order with
important
mod's and improvement. Several reference to them but more the
Andy's. I
think because he is on our coast and general neighborhood.
David Widen
Andrew really liked the Andy's suits. The only thing Allyson and
I didn't get on ours was the new diagonal zipper that Andrew got Andy to
add. Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes straight across the front.
The sleeve sort of telescopes over the seal so you don't put
pressure on the wrist seal when you reach for your valves, etc. The material
is heavier than the TLS 350, but it still is very flexible. It has a sort of
panel built in under the arm that allows some stretch (same with the legs)
and it comes stock with the SI Tek valves. It also has a nice slim boot
(Andy calls it the tech boot) that fits perfectly into the XL Jetfins. There
have been some complaints about the boots splitting after several hundred
dives (Andrew does about 600 a year), but at least they fit the fins nicely.
The suit is well made and has nice heavy duty latex seals.
Todd Claggett
I forgot to mention that the DS2 zipper that comes straight down
is not the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has apparently gotten Andy to
make one that curves at the bottom, sort of around the waist a bit instead
of just straight. It takes the stress off of the zipper and makes it last
longer.
Todd
I believe the key was that Andy's suits have a little extra
material under the armpit to allow proper mobility i.e., reaching your
valves and in the crotch area for proper kicking. The medium grade tri-lam
is also a little more durable than the tls 350. Finally, the new model that
Andrew called the 5th D spec. has a zipper that is self donning much like
the tls 350, but instead of the zipper ending at the hip, it ends midway
between the hip and shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper when you
bend over.
Tom Sawicki
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to
get in the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get
in the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in
the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in
the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D082091300-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
agree completely on DUI service - it is the worst in the business. They =
also=20
screw up most orders. The last time I called them, they had some =
complete=20
asshole in the service department with a huge attitude problem. That is =
why I=20
send all of my stuff to another company to customize, change seals, etc. =
I still=20
order the new suits from them, but just use a serial number that they =
can match=20
up to make it identical to my others. I doubt I will need any more suits =
any=20
time soon , since I have four perfect ones, but if I do I will have to =
deal with=20
them .</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D082091300-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D082091300-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>As=20
soon as somebody else can make the same thing, that will be the place to =
get=20
one, but in the meantime they are the only game in town. Other =
reinventions of=20
the wheel and solving of non problems with bigger problems abound.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D082091300-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D082091300-08052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Once=20
again, I will talk to Andrew and see if we can all get on the same page. =
In the=20
meantime, what I see is everyone misinterpreting everything that comes =
out of=20
GUE, and every time I do talk to Andrew or JJ about some nonsense that =
is=20
attributed to GUE, it turns out to be a =
misinterpretation.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Capt JT=20
[mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 =
8:07=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> trey@ne*.co*; =
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20
RE: drysuit answers<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>If I twisted it then
everyone =
in the=20
class did, we did not ask for DS instruction, it came with the class. =
I think=20
at least 2 in the class had DUI suits, so far the company sucks for =
service.=20
Cobb had a custom suit ordered and they tried to pass one off the rack =
the=20
first time and then they sent him this one, which is off. We have had =
others=20
order them and the wrong stuff shows up, so far I am ahead of the =
game, I=20
bought the cheapest DS there is and its a POS, I have 2 with less than =
1000=20
for the both, I don't have to send it back and have it get lost or the =
wrong=20
one sent back or anything, because I know its a POS, just like =
everyone elses.=20
But I saved nearly 4000 in 2 suits, a company is only as good as its =
service=20
department.<BR>Does the suit make the diver or does the diver make the =
suit,=20
chief you're making way to much of this. Before I sent out the post =
everyone=20
in the class (but one and he did not object to the DS stuff ) approved =
it as=20
being the facts of the class. So they heard the same stuff I did. If =
you don't=20
like the way he is teaching the class that is not my problem. I am not =
turning=20
anything into an argument, just the facts of the class. Did you read =
all of=20
the email post on DS answers. Under each statement is the name of the =
person=20
who wrote it and it is exactly what we all heard in the class, just =
the=20
facts.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> At 07:32 PM
5/7/02 -0400, =
George=20
Irvine wrote:<BR><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">No, what is normal is that you =
completely=20
twisted it around got BS called on it so decided to turn it into an =
argument=20
based on resentment. Let me remind you where all this comes from in =
the=20
first place: W K P P. What is also normal is that when I asked =
Andrew=20
about this, I discovered that once again what he said and and what =
got=20
across are worlds apart. </FONT><BR> <BR><FONT
face=3Darial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Andrew is a nice guy, he is charismatic, he can tell you =
that you are=20
screwing up and you will be ok with it. I am not that way, but then =
I do not=20
have to be - not in the business. You or anyone else can take or =
leave what=20
I say, but will eventually find out that I am always correct.=20
</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff
size=3D2>You =
know, it is=20
really funny. I have been doing this forever, have the access to the =
best=20
information from the best sources, can afford to buy a bunch of =
drysuits and=20
have them all be wrong until I find the right one, have watched =
hundreds of=20
people on my team waste their money on all the bullshit before they =
ended up=20
spending the money in the end to get the right stuff, but you guys =
don't=20
even have one working suit and yet you want to tell me I am full of =
shit=20
when I try to save you the time and =
trouble.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT=20
face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The fact is you don't want to =
agree with=20
anything I ever say, and that is fine, but you are the one who has =
been=20
diving all this time and still asking about a suit, not me. I know =
exactly=20
what works best. You can go bet your money against me all you want, =
and just=20
end up spending the money twice.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dtahoma=20
size=3D2> <BR><B>From:</B> Capt JT [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:captjt@mi*.co*"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:captjt@mi*.co*</A>]<BR><B>Sent:</B> =
Tuesday,=20
May 07, 2002 6:29 PM<BR><B>To:</B> trey@ne*.co*; trey@ne*.co*; =
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: drysuit =
answers<BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DL>
<DD>Just reporting the facts of the class, if the class says one =
thing=20
and you say another then things are=20
normal.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DD>At 06:17 PM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:<FONT =
face=3Darial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">
<DD>Real simple - who has been doing it longer and who is new =
at it. I=20
am getting real sick of the bullshit. The real story is the =
nobody can=20
make any money on the TLS 350 so nobody wants to promote it, =
so we=20
have to listen to all the bullshit reinventions of the wheel =
that show=20
up once a week. The other brands have giant margins relative =
to DUI.=20
You figure it out. You figure out if I am some superhuman =
breed or if=20
I just happen to know what I am talking about, as painful as =
that=20
decision is for you.</FONT>=20
<DD><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>=20
<DD>We (WKPP) get no special break from DUI and neither do the =
dealers. I could care less what the suit costs, and I don't =
care what=20
the margins are. JJ asked me what I would want in a suit if I =
could=20
have anything at all made.He gets no love from DUI and no =
breaks. I=20
told him exactly like the TLS 350. JJ wants to add a seal =
protector -=20
good idea, but that is about it for what should be =
different.</FONT>=20
<DD><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>=20
<DD>The suits do not need to have "stretch" material, they are =
not=20
supposed to be dove tight to your body, you are not supposed =
to have=20
fifty layers of bullshit on underneath, you are supposed to =
have a=20
perfect set of C-4 and nothing else, you are supposed to have =
the=20
pockets and the valves where I have them, and you are supposed =
to take=20
care of the thing properly like anything else.</FONT>=20
<DD><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>=20
<DD>JT, you are unbelievable sometimes. You are the one who is =
always=20
bitching about sales tactics of the dive business, and you are =
always=20
the first to fall for them, and the first to ignore the =
thinking that=20
has produced the best track record in diving. </FONT><FONT =
face=3Dtahoma=20
size=3D2>
<DD>-----Original Message-----=20
<DD>From: Capt JT [<A href=3D"mailto:captjt@mi*.co*"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:captjt@mi*.co*</A>]=20
<DD>Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:46 PM=20
<DD>To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
<DD>Subject: RE: drysuit answers<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>I expected an email from you on this topic, so that puts =
me in a=20
tough spot, who to believe. =
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DD>At 05:37 AM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:<FONT =
face=3Darial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>=20
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">
<DD>JT, this is not the case. Look on the WKPP site and tell =
me my=20
suit has air bubbles. I can do anything with that suit. =
Maybe you=20
should advise the Navy SEALs why they should not use the =
suit I use.=20
I can reach anything I need to reach in my suit with C-4 =
under it,=20
and I have significantly more muscle mass than you guys.=20
<DD>The correct answer is get a custom suit and learn =
buoyancy=20
control. I have four and they all work perfectly.</FONT> =
<FONT=20
face=3Dtahoma size=3D2>
<DD>-----Original Message-----=20
<DD>From: Capt JT [<A href=3D"mailto:captjt@mi*.co*"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:captjt@mi*.co*</A>]=20
<DD>Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:04 PM=20
<DD>To: techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
<DD>Subject: drysuit answers<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit statements. =
Below is=20
compiled emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope =
this=20
helps everyone with their=20
=
questions.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR=
><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">
<DD>The self donning with the telescoping torso causes to =
many air=20
pockets and is only there because it is needed for =
you to=20
get into the suit, it does not stretch. I do believe he =
said the=20
TLS 350 also wears out extremely fast.<BR><BR>
<DD>Andy's is making a DS that is much to what everyone =
really=20
needs, self donning, stretchable, in a shell that is =
durable. Dave=20
Dalton has one and so does Todd, but theirs have not had =
the=20
upgrades of the new ones coming out, if I remember =
right.<BR><BR>
<DD>I have a neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that =
it has=20
been down to 400ft a bunch of times it is a high dollar =
crushed=20
neoprene ;-0 hopefully some of these others guys =
will answer=20
about the suits, they were there just like=20
=
me.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><B=
R><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&
lt;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DD>JT</DD></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><FONT
face=3Dverdana =
color=3D#0000ff>
<DD>JT, <BR><BR>
<DD>I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... =
diaganol=20
zipper entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with =
y'all last=20
year? I'm curious as I don't recall ever hearing any of the =
GUE/WKPP=20
folks mention anything other than DUI previously. <BR><BR>
<DD>BD</FONT> <BR><BR>
<DD>The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the "Ultra",=20
<DD>his lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have=20
<DD>the "Extreme" which is the heavier grade that Andrew=20
<DD>likes (but not the cordura, the heaviest).=20
<DD>The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that=20
<DD>when you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit=20
<DD>restricts your motion (same for the DUI=20
<DD>undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in=20
<DD>panels under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to=20
<DD>the "rag doll" design of the sleeves on the DUI & =
most=20
<DD>others. This gives better freedom of movement. He=20
<DD>also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal=20
<DD>zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't=20
<DD>fold when you bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to=20
<DD>the DS-3 that we have, due to flex of the zipper when=20
<DD>doing a valve drill.=20
<DD>BTW, Andrew is GUE, not (as far as I know) WKPP.=20
<DD>Dave Dalton<BR><BR>
<DD>I have the DUI 450 and noticed the following things in =
the=20
class-=20
<DD>-When the backplate is in the proper position the =
telescope=20
flaps stick out=20
<DD>and catches your long hose and light cable. I was =
wearing my=20
plate way too=20
<DD>low and the belt was holding the "skirt" in and never =
noticed it=20
before. And=20
<DD>when you have the proper amount of air in the suit (i.e. =
practically none)=20
<DD>the suit does not telescope. I know, I have one.=20
<DD>-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut like they would be =
on a=20
shirt or=20
<DD>jacket, there is not enough material to allow reaching =
your=20
valves,=20
<DD>particularly with the thick cordura the 450 has.=20
<DD>-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the =
exhaust=20
valve in exactly=20
<DD>the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from =
getting=20
on/off your=20
<DD>shoulder.=20
<DD>I suppose that DUI could add the material to the armpits =
to=20
allow reaching=20
<DD>the valves, but this would mean dealing with DUI, and =
that would=20
mean pretty=20
<DD>much not having a drysuit for a period of several =
months. But I=20
suppose when=20
<DD>you are sending it back to get the various leaks fixed =
that DUI=20
suits are=20
<DD>plagued with, you can have the mods done then.=20
<DD>From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean =
divers=20
would:=20
<DD>-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water =
like=20
crushed=20
<DD>neoprene.=20
<DD>-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow =
reaching the=20
valves.=20
<DD>-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low =
as to=20
get stressed=20
<DD>when you bend over.=20
<DD>-Velcro seal bellows pockets on both sides cut so your =
hand can=20
slip into=20
<DD>them without the top folding in, equipped with grommets =
for a=20
belay line.=20
<DD>-An exhaust valve on the outside of the forearm rather =
than the=20
<DD>upper-outside of the arm.=20
<DD>-An inflate valve which has restricted air flow. This is =
for the=20
event of a=20
<DD>stuck DS inflater valve or regulator and to keep you =
from=20
putting too much=20
<DD>air in the DS to begin with.=20
<DD>-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top of the fin =
pocket=20
rubs.=20
<DD>-P valve located on the leg more towards the inseam than =
sticking our front.=20
<DD>-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels in the =
armpits and=20
crotch=20
<DD>(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps development of=20
stretchable=20
<DD>thinsulate.=20
<DD>The goals are:=20
<DD>-To be able to reach your valves with no air in the =
suit.=20
<DD>-To be streamlined yet flexible.=20
<DD>-To be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) =
position.=20
<DD>-To have large, easy access pockets on both sides.=20
<DD>Currently this suit does not exist. The folks with the =
cheapest=20
DUI 200=20
<DD>(i.e. The model without the telescope) seem to come =
closest to=20
the ideal,=20
<DD>near as I can tell, if you get the purge valve in the =
right=20
place and the=20
<DD>correct pockets installed. The Andy's have the crotch =
and armpit=20
panels but=20
<DD>you have to have a fair amount of drag-producing trilam =
material=20
to allow=20
<DD>you movement and their pockets suck.=20
<DD>But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I would =
try to=20
find one=20
<DD>which incorporates as many of the above features as =
possible,=20
with the=20
<DD>number one priority of being able to reach your valves =
with no=20
air in the=20
<DD>suit.=20
<DD>I may have missed something here or not interpreted =
correctly,=20
gang please=20
<DD>correct me where I am wrong.=20
<DD>Jim Cobb=20
<DD>Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is =
Dive=20
Concepts in=20
<DD>California and Andy's.=20
<DD>I have a DUI CF200 with the telescoping body. I asked =
him about=20
the DS and=20
<DD>the only bad thing, which we all know, is the absorption =
of=20
water and time=20
<DD>to dry. It does not develop the folds as the Trilamines =
do. It=20
is more=20
<DD>durable then the type trilamines. He stated that two =
divers,=20
same setup and=20
<DD>scooters, the crashed neoprene will slowly walk away =
from the=20
trilamine.=20
<DD>Crashed Neoprene down side again is weight and time to =
dry=20
especially if you=20
<DD>are traveling.=20
<DD>The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There =
a=20
modification to=20
<DD>the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the body =
instead of=20
the=20
<DD>traditional lower on the right side.=20
<DD>The important part to all this is movement or motion. As =
one=20
raises the arm=20
<DD>in both the undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the =
restriction=20
of the=20
<DD>movement is the issue under the arm pit. That is wear =
the=20
stretch points and=20
<DD>restriction in movement occurs. The ability to reach the =
valves.=20
(See David=20
<DD>Dalton comment on the panel - important to relieve the =
restrict=20
issue.)=20
<DD>Dive Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to =
order with=20
important=20
<DD>mod's and improvement. Several reference to them but =
more the=20
Andy's. I=20
<DD>think because he is on our coast and general =
neighborhood.=20
<DD>David Widen<FONT color=3D#0000ff>=20
<DD>Andrew really liked the Andy's suits. The only thing =
Allyson and=20
I didn't get on ours was the new diagonal zipper that Andrew =
got=20
Andy to add. Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes =
straight=20
across the front.</FONT> <FONT color=3D#0000ff>
<DD>The sleeve sort of telescopes over the seal so you don't =
put=20
pressure on the wrist seal when you reach for your valves, =
etc. The=20
material is heavier than the TLS 350, but it still is very =
flexible.=20
It has a sort of panel built in under the arm that allows =
some=20
stretch (same with the legs) and it comes stock with the SI =
Tek=20
valves. It also has a nice slim boot (Andy calls it the tech =
boot)=20
that fits perfectly into the XL Jetfins. There have been =
some=20
complaints about the boots splitting after several hundred =
dives=20
(Andrew does about 600 a year), but at least they fit the =
fins=20
nicely. The suit is well made and has nice heavy duty latex =
seals.=20
<DD>Todd Claggett=20
<DD>I forgot to mention that the DS2 zipper that comes =
straight down=20
is not the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has apparently =
gotten=20
Andy to make one that curves at the bottom, sort of around =
the waist=20
a bit instead of just straight. It takes the stress off of =
the=20
zipper and makes it last longer.</FONT> <FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>
<DD>Todd<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>I believe the key was that Andy's suits have a little =
extra=20
material under the armpit to allow proper mobility i.e., =
reaching=20
your valves and in the crotch area for proper kicking. The =
medium=20
grade tri-lam is also a little more durable than the tls =
350.=20
Finally, the new model that Andrew called the 5th D spec. =
has a=20
zipper that is self donning much like the tls 350, but =
instead of=20
the zipper ending at the hip, it ends midway between the hip =
and=20
shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper when you bend =
over.=20
<DD>Tom=20
=
Sawicki<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><
;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><B=
R><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&
lt;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR=
><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&l
t;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><
;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><=
BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><B=
R><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&
lt;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR=
><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&l
t;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=
<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DD>"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you =
have to=20
get in the water"<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>
<DD>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast =
& more=20
<DD> Web Site <A href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/" =
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A>=20
<DD>Email =
captjt@mi*.co*</FONT>=20
=
</DD></BLOCKQUOTE></DD></BLOCKQUOTE></DD></DL><BR><BR>&l
t;BR><BR>"You can't =
learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the=20
water"<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Your Guide to Great Wreck =
Diving along=20
the East Coast & more <BR> Web Site <A=20
href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A><BR>Email =
=20
captjt@mi*.co*<BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>"You can't learn =
to dive on=20
the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
water"<BR><BR><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East =
Coast &=20
more <BR> Web Site <A href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A><BR>Email =
=20
captjt@mi*.co*<BR></FONT></U></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>"You can't =
learn to dive=20
on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the
water"<BR><BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><U>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East =
Coast &=20
more <BR> Web Site <A href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A><BR>Email =
=20
captjt@mi*.co*<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></U></BODY></HTML
>
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C1F604.F7B83070--
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