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No, what is normal is that you completely twisted it around got BS called on
it so decided to turn it into an argument based on resentment. Let me remind
you where all this comes from in the first place: W K P P. What is also
normal is that when I asked Andrew about this, I discovered that once again
what he said and and what got across are worlds apart.
Andrew is a nice guy, he is charismatic, he can tell you that you are
screwing up and you will be ok with it. I am not that way, but then I do not
have to be - not in the business. You or anyone else can take or leave what
I say, but will eventually find out that I am always correct.
You know, it is really funny. I have been doing this forever, have the
access to the best information from the best sources, can afford to buy a
bunch of drysuits and have them all be wrong until I find the right one,
have watched hundreds of people on my team waste their money on all the
bullshit before they ended up spending the money in the end to get the right
stuff, but you guys don't even have one working suit and yet you want to
tell me I am full of shit when I try to save you the time and trouble.
The fact is you don't want to agree with anything I ever say, and that is
fine, but you are the one who has been diving all this time and still asking
about a suit, not me. I know exactly what works best. You can go bet your
money against me all you want, and just end up spending the money twice.
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 6:29 PM
To: trey@ne*.co*; trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: drysuit answers
Just reporting the facts of the class, if the class says one thing and you
say another then things are normal.
At 06:17 PM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:
Real simple - who has been doing it longer and who is new at it. I am
getting real sick of the bullshit. The real story is the nobody can make any
money on the TLS 350 so nobody wants to promote it, so we have to listen to
all the bullshit reinventions of the wheel that show up once a week. The
other brands have giant margins relative to DUI. You figure it out. You
figure out if I am some superhuman breed or if I just happen to know what I
am talking about, as painful as that decision is for you.
We (WKPP) get no special break from DUI and neither do the dealers. I
could care less what the suit costs, and I don't care what the margins are.
JJ asked me what I would want in a suit if I could have anything at all
made.He gets no love from DUI and no breaks. I told him exactly like the TLS
350. JJ wants to add a seal protector - good idea, but that is about it for
what should be different.
The suits do not need to have "stretch" material, they are not supposed
to be dove tight to your body, you are not supposed to have fifty layers of
bullshit on underneath, you are supposed to have a perfect set of C-4 and
nothing else, you are supposed to have the pockets and the valves where I
have them, and you are supposed to take care of the thing properly like
anything else.
JT, you are unbelievable sometimes. You are the one who is always
bitching about sales tactics of the dive business, and you are always the
first to fall for them, and the first to ignore the thinking that has
produced the best track record in diving.
-----Original Message-----
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:46 PM
To: trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: RE: drysuit answers
I expected an email from you on this topic, so that puts me in a
tough spot, who to believe.
At 05:37 AM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:
JT, this is not the case. Look on the WKPP site and tell me my
suit has air bubbles. I can do anything with that suit. Maybe you should
advise the Navy SEALs why they should not use the suit I use. I can reach
anything I need to reach in my suit with C-4 under it, and I have
significantly more muscle mass than you guys.
The correct answer is get a custom suit and learn buoyancy
control. I have four and they all work perfectly.
-----Original Message-----
From: Capt JT [mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:04 PM
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com
Subject: drysuit answers
I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit statements. Below is
compiled emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope this helps
everyone with their questions.
The self donning with the telescoping torso causes to many air
pockets and is only there because it is needed for you to get into the
suit, it does not stretch. I do believe he said the TLS 350 also wears out
extremely fast.
Andy's is making a DS that is much to what everyone really
needs, self donning, stretchable, in a shell that is durable. Dave Dalton
has one and so does Todd, but theirs have not had the upgrades of the new
ones coming out, if I remember right.
I have a neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that it has
been down to 400ft a bunch of times it is a high dollar crushed neoprene ;-0
hopefully some of these others guys will answer about the suits, they were
there just like me.
JT
JT,
I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... diaganol
zipper entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all last year?
I'm curious as I don't recall ever hearing any of the GUE/WKPP folks mention
anything other than DUI previously.
BD
The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the "Ultra",
his lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have
the "Extreme" which is the heavier grade that Andrew
likes (but not the cordura, the heaviest).
The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that
when you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit
restricts your motion (same for the DUI
undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in
panels under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to
the "rag doll" design of the sleeves on the DUI & most
others. This gives better freedom of movement. He
also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal
zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't
fold when you bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to
the DS-3 that we have, due to flex of the zipper when
doing a valve drill.
BTW, Andrew is GUE, not (as far as I know) WKPP.
Dave Dalton
I have the DUI 450 and noticed the following things in the class-
-When the backplate is in the proper position the telescope flaps
stick out
and catches your long hose and light cable. I was wearing my plate
way too
low and the belt was holding the "skirt" in and never noticed it
before. And
when you have the proper amount of air in the suit (i.e.
practically none)
the suit does not telescope. I know, I have one.
-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut like they would be on a shirt
or
jacket, there is not enough material to allow reaching your
valves,
particularly with the thick cordura the 450 has.
-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the exhaust valve
in exactly
the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting on/off
your
shoulder.
I suppose that DUI could add the material to the armpits to allow
reaching
the valves, but this would mean dealing with DUI, and that would
mean pretty
much not having a drysuit for a period of several months. But I
suppose when
you are sending it back to get the various leaks fixed that DUI
suits are
plagued with, you can have the mods done then.
From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers would:
-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water like
crushed
neoprene.
-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow reaching the
valves.
-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low as to get
stressed
when you bend over.
-Velcro seal bellows pockets on both sides cut so your hand can
slip into
them without the top folding in, equipped with grommets for a
belay line.
-An exhaust valve on the outside of the forearm rather than the
upper-outside of the arm.
-An inflate valve which has restricted air flow. This is for the
event of a
stuck DS inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from putting
too much
air in the DS to begin with.
-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top of the fin pocket
rubs.
-P valve located on the leg more towards the inseam than sticking
our front.
-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels in the armpits and
crotch
(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps development of stretchable
thinsulate.
The goals are:
-To be able to reach your valves with no air in the suit.
-To be streamlined yet flexible.
-To be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) position.
-To have large, easy access pockets on both sides.
Currently this suit does not exist. The folks with the cheapest
DUI 200
(i.e. The model without the telescope) seem to come closest to the
ideal,
near as I can tell, if you get the purge valve in the right place
and the
correct pockets installed. The Andy's have the crotch and armpit
panels but
you have to have a fair amount of drag-producing trilam material
to allow
you movement and their pockets suck.
But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I would try to
find one
which incorporates as many of the above features as possible, with
the
number one priority of being able to reach your valves with no air
in the
suit.
I may have missed something here or not interpreted correctly,
gang please
correct me where I am wrong.
Jim Cobb
Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is Dive
Concepts in
California and Andy's.
I have a DUI CF200 with the telescoping body. I asked him about
the DS and
the only bad thing, which we all know, is the absorption of water
and time
to dry. It does not develop the folds as the Trilamines do. It is
more
durable then the type trilamines. He stated that two divers, same
setup and
scooters, the crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from the
trilamine.
Crashed Neoprene down side again is weight and time to dry
especially if you
are traveling.
The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There a
modification to
the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the body instead of the
traditional lower on the right side.
The important part to all this is movement or motion. As one
raises the arm
in both the undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the restriction of
the
movement is the issue under the arm pit. That is wear the stretch
points and
restriction in movement occurs. The ability to reach the valves.
(See David
Dalton comment on the panel - important to relieve the restrict
issue.)
Dive Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order with
important
mod's and improvement. Several reference to them but more the
Andy's. I
think because he is on our coast and general neighborhood.
David Widen
Andrew really liked the Andy's suits. The only thing Allyson and I
didn't get on ours was the new diagonal zipper that Andrew got Andy to add.
Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes straight across the front.
The sleeve sort of telescopes over the seal so you don't put
pressure on the wrist seal when you reach for your valves, etc. The material
is heavier than the TLS 350, but it still is very flexible. It has a sort of
panel built in under the arm that allows some stretch (same with the legs)
and it comes stock with the SI Tek valves. It also has a nice slim boot
(Andy calls it the tech boot) that fits perfectly into the XL Jetfins. There
have been some complaints about the boots splitting after several hundred
dives (Andrew does about 600 a year), but at least they fit the fins nicely.
The suit is well made and has nice heavy duty latex seals.
Todd Claggett
I forgot to mention that the DS2 zipper that comes straight down
is not the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has apparently gotten Andy to
make one that curves at the bottom, sort of around the waist a bit instead
of just straight. It takes the stress off of the zipper and makes it last
longer.
Todd
I believe the key was that Andy's suits have a little extra
material under the armpit to allow proper mobility i.e., reaching your
valves and in the crotch area for proper kicking. The medium grade tri-lam
is also a little more durable than the tls 350. Finally, the new model that
Andrew called the 5th D spec. has a zipper that is self donning much like
the tls 350, but instead of the zipper ending at the hip, it ends midway
between the hip and shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper when you
bend over.
Tom Sawicki
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to
get in the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get
in the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in
the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D686411223-07052002><FONT face=3DArial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>No,=20
what is normal is that you completely twisted it around got BS called on =
it so=20
decided to turn it into an argument based on resentment. Let me =
remind you=20
where all this comes from in the first place: W K P P. =
What is=20
also normal is that when I asked Andrew about this, I discovered that =
once again=20
what he said and and what got across are worlds =
apart.</FONT></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D686411223-07052002><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D686411223-07052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D686411223-07052002>Andrew is a nice guy, he is charismatic, he =
can tell=20
you that you are screwing up and you will be ok with it. I am not that =
way, but=20
then I do not have to be - not in the business. You or anyone else can =
take or=20
leave what I say, but will eventually find out that I am always =
correct.=20
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D686411223-07052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D686411223-07052002>You know, it is really funny. I have been =
doing this=20
forever, have the access to the best information from the best sources, =
can=20
afford to buy a bunch of drysuits and have them all be wrong until I =
find the=20
right one, have watched hundreds of people on my team waste their money =
on all=20
the bullshit before they ended up spending the money in the end to get =
the right=20
stuff, but you guys don't even have one working suit and yet you want to =
tell me=20
I am full of shit when I try to save you the time and=20
trouble.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D686411223-07052002></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D686411223-07052002>The fact is you don't want to agree with =
anything I=20
ever say, and that is fine, but you are the one who has been diving all =
this=20
time and still asking about a suit, not me. I know exactly what works =
best. You=20
can go bet your money against me all you want, and just end up spending =
the=20
money twice.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D686411223-07052002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D686411223-07052002> </SPAN><BR><B>From:</B> Capt JT=20
[mailto:captjt@mi*.co*]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 =
6:29=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> trey@ne*.co*; trey@ne*.co*;=20
techdiver@aquanaut.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: drysuit=20
answers<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Just reporting the facts of the class, if the class says one =
thing=20
and you say another then things are
normal.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>At =
06:17 PM=20
5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:<BR><FONT face=3Darial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">Real simple - who has been doing it =
longer and=20
who is new at it. I am getting real sick of the bullshit. The real =
story is=20
the nobody can make any money on the TLS 350 so nobody wants to =
promote it,=20
so we have to listen to all the bullshit reinventions of the wheel =
that show=20
up once a week. The other brands have giant margins relative to DUI. =
You=20
figure it out. You figure out if I am some superhuman breed or if I =
just=20
happen to know what I am talking about, as painful as that decision =
is for=20
you.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>We (WKPP) get=20
no special break from DUI and neither do the dealers. I could care =
less what=20
the suit costs, and I don't care what the margins are. JJ asked me =
what I=20
would want in a suit if I could have anything at all made.He gets no =
love=20
from DUI and no breaks. I told him exactly like the TLS 350. JJ =
wants to add=20
a seal protector - good idea, but that is about it for what should =
be=20
different.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=3Darial
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
suits do not need to have "stretch" material, they are not supposed =
to be=20
dove tight to your body, you are not supposed to have fifty layers =
of=20
bullshit on underneath, you are supposed to have a perfect set of =
C-4 and=20
nothing else, you are supposed to have the pockets and the valves =
where I=20
have them, and you are supposed to take care of the thing properly =
like=20
anything else.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=3Darial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>JT,=20
you are unbelievable sometimes. You are the one who is always =
bitching about=20
sales tactics of the dive business, and you are always the first to =
fall for=20
them, and the first to ignore the thinking that has produced the =
best track=20
record in diving. </FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3Dtahoma size=3D2>
<DL>
<DD>-----Original Message-----=20
<DD>From:</B> Capt JT [<A href=3D"mailto:captjt@mi*.co*"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:captjt@mi*.co*</A>]=20
<DD>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 1:46 PM=20
<DD>To:</B> trey@ne*.co*; techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
<DD>Subject:</B> RE: drysuit answers<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>I expected an email from you on this topic, so that puts me =
in a=20
tough spot, who to believe. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DD>At 05:37 AM 5/7/02 -0400, George Irvine wrote:<FONT =
face=3Darial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">
<DD>JT, this is not the case. Look on the WKPP site and tell =
me my=20
suit has air bubbles. I can do anything with that suit. Maybe =
you=20
should advise the Navy SEALs why they should not use the suit =
I use. I=20
can reach anything I need to reach in my suit with C-4 under =
it, and I=20
have significantly more muscle mass than you guys. </FONT>
<DD><FONT face=3Darial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>=20
<DD>The correct answer is get a custom suit and learn buoyancy =
control. I have four and they all work perfectly.</FONT> <FONT =
face=3Dtahoma size=3D2>
<DD>-----Original Message-----=20
<DD>From: Capt JT [<A href=3D"mailto:captjt@mi*.co*"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">mailto:captjt@mi*.co*</A>]=20
<DD>Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:04 PM=20
<DD>To: techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
<DD>Subject: drysuit answers<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit statements. =
Below is=20
compiled emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope =
this=20
helps everyone with their=20
questions.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">
<DD>The self donning with the telescoping torso causes to =
many air=20
pockets and is only there because it is needed for you =
to get=20
into the suit, it does not stretch. I do believe he said the =
TLS 350=20
also wears out extremely fast.<BR><BR>
<DD>Andy's is making a DS that is much to what everyone =
really=20
needs, self donning, stretchable, in a shell that is =
durable. Dave=20
Dalton has one and so does Todd, but theirs have not had the =
upgrades of the new ones coming out, if I remember =
right.<BR><BR>
<DD>I have a neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that =
it has=20
been down to 400ft a bunch of times it is a high dollar =
crushed=20
neoprene ;-0 hopefully some of these others guys will =
answer=20
about the suits, they were there just like=20
=
me.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><B=
R>
<DD>JT</DD></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><FONT
face=3Dverdana =
color=3D#0000ff>
<DD>JT, <BR><BR>
<DD>I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... =
diaganol=20
zipper entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all =
last=20
year? I'm curious as I don't recall ever hearing any of the =
GUE/WKPP=20
folks mention anything other than DUI previously. <BR><BR>
<DD>BD</FONT> <BR><BR>
<DD>The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the "Ultra",=20
<DD>his lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have=20
<DD>the "Extreme" which is the heavier grade that Andrew=20
<DD>likes (but not the cordura, the heaviest).=20
<DD>The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that=20
<DD>when you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit=20
<DD>restricts your motion (same for the DUI=20
<DD>undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in=20
<DD>panels under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to=20
<DD>the "rag doll" design of the sleeves on the DUI & most =
<DD>others. This gives better freedom of movement. He=20
<DD>also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal=20
<DD>zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't=20
<DD>fold when you bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to=20
<DD>the DS-3 that we have, due to flex of the zipper when=20
<DD>doing a valve drill.=20
<DD>BTW, Andrew is GUE, not (as far as I know) WKPP.<BR><BR>
<DD>Dave Dalton<BR><BR>
<DD>I have the DUI 450 and noticed the following things in the =
class-=20
<DD>-When the backplate is in the proper position the =
telescope flaps=20
stick out=20
<DD>and catches your long hose and light cable. I was wearing =
my plate=20
way too=20
<DD>low and the belt was holding the "skirt" in and never =
noticed it=20
before. And=20
<DD>when you have the proper amount of air in the suit (i.e.=20
practically none)=20
<DD>the suit does not telescope. I know, I have one.=20
<DD>-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut like they would be on =
a shirt=20
or=20
<DD>jacket, there is not enough material to allow reaching =
your=20
valves,=20
<DD>particularly with the thick cordura the 450 has.=20
<DD>-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the =
exhaust valve=20
in exactly=20
<DD>the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting =
on/off=20
your=20
<DD>shoulder.=20
<DD>I suppose that DUI could add the material to the armpits =
to allow=20
reaching=20
<DD>the valves, but this would mean dealing with DUI, and that =
would=20
mean pretty=20
<DD>much not having a drysuit for a period of several months. =
But I=20
suppose when=20
<DD>you are sending it back to get the various leaks fixed =
that DUI=20
suits are=20
<DD>plagued with, you can have the mods done then.=20
<DD>From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers =
would:=20
<DD>-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water =
like=20
crushed=20
<DD>neoprene.=20
<DD>-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow =
reaching the=20
valves.=20
<DD>-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low as =
to get=20
stressed=20
<DD>when you bend over.=20
<DD>-Velcro seal bellows pockets on both sides cut so your =
hand can=20
slip into=20
<DD>them without the top folding in, equipped with grommets =
for a=20
belay line.=20
<DD>-An exhaust valve on the outside of the forearm rather =
than the=20
<DD>upper-outside of the arm.=20
<DD>-An inflate valve which has restricted air flow. This is =
for the=20
event of a=20
<DD>stuck DS inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from =
putting=20
too much=20
<DD>air in the DS to begin with.=20
<DD>-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top of the fin =
pocket=20
rubs.=20
<DD>-P valve located on the leg more towards the inseam than =
sticking=20
our front.=20
<DD>-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels in the =
armpits and=20
crotch=20
<DD>(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps development of =
stretchable=20
<DD>thinsulate.=20
<DD>The goals are:=20
<DD>-To be able to reach your valves with no air in the suit.=20
<DD>-To be streamlined yet flexible.=20
<DD>-To be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) =
position.=20
<DD>-To have large, easy access pockets on both sides.=20
<DD>Currently this suit does not exist. The folks with the =
cheapest=20
DUI 200=20
<DD>(i.e. The model without the telescope) seem to come =
closest to the=20
ideal,=20
<DD>near as I can tell, if you get the purge valve in the =
right place=20
and the=20
<DD>correct pockets installed. The Andy's have the crotch and =
armpit=20
panels but=20
<DD>you have to have a fair amount of drag-producing trilam =
material=20
to allow=20
<DD>you movement and their pockets suck.=20
<DD>But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I would =
try to=20
find one=20
<DD>which incorporates as many of the above features as =
possible, with=20
the=20
<DD>number one priority of being able to reach your valves =
with no air=20
in the=20
<DD>suit.=20
<DD>I may have missed something here or not interpreted =
correctly,=20
gang please=20
<DD>correct me where I am wrong.=20
<DD>Jim Cobb=20
<DD>Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is =
Dive=20
Concepts in=20
<DD>California and Andy's.=20
<DD>I have a DUI CF200 with the telescoping body. I asked him =
about=20
the DS and=20
<DD>the only bad thing, which we all know, is the absorption =
of water=20
and time=20
<DD>to dry. It does not develop the folds as the Trilamines =
do. It is=20
more=20
<DD>durable then the type trilamines. He stated that two =
divers, same=20
setup and=20
<DD>scooters, the crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from =
the=20
trilamine.=20
<DD>Crashed Neoprene down side again is weight and time to dry =
especially if you=20
<DD>are traveling.=20
<DD>The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There a =
modification to=20
<DD>the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the body =
instead of the=20
<DD>traditional lower on the right side.=20
<DD>The important part to all this is movement or motion. As =
one=20
raises the arm=20
<DD>in both the undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the =
restriction of=20
the=20
<DD>movement is the issue under the arm pit. That is wear the =
stretch=20
points and=20
<DD>restriction in movement occurs. The ability to reach the =
valves.=20
(See David=20
<DD>Dalton comment on the panel - important to relieve the =
restrict=20
issue.)=20
<DD>Dive Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order =
with=20
important=20
<DD>mod's and improvement. Several reference to them but more =
the=20
Andy's. I=20
<DD>think because he is on our coast and general neighborhood. =
<DD>David Widen<FONT color=3D#0000ff>=20
<DD>Andrew really liked the Andy's suits. The only thing =
Allyson and I=20
didn't get on ours was the new diagonal zipper that Andrew got =
Andy to=20
add. Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes straight =
across the=20
front.</FONT> <FONT color=3D#0000ff>
<DD>The sleeve sort of telescopes over the seal so you don't =
put=20
pressure on the wrist seal when you reach for your valves, =
etc. The=20
material is heavier than the TLS 350, but it still is very =
flexible.=20
It has a sort of panel built in under the arm that allows some =
stretch=20
(same with the legs) and it comes stock with the SI Tek =
valves. It=20
also has a nice slim boot (Andy calls it the tech boot) that =
fits=20
perfectly into the XL Jetfins. There have been some complaints =
about=20
the boots splitting after several hundred dives (Andrew does =
about 600=20
a year), but at least they fit the fins nicely. The suit is =
well made=20
and has nice heavy duty latex seals.=20
<DD>Todd Claggett<BR><BR>
<DD>I forgot to mention that the DS2 zipper that comes =
straight down=20
is not the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has apparently =
gotten=20
Andy to make one that curves at the bottom, sort of around the =
waist a=20
bit instead of just straight. It takes the stress off of the =
zipper=20
and makes it last longer.</FONT> <FONT color=3D#0000ff>
<DD>Todd<BR><BR></FONT>
<DD>I believe the key was that Andy's suits have a little =
extra=20
material under the armpit to allow proper mobility i.e., =
reaching your=20
valves and in the crotch area for proper kicking. The medium =
grade=20
tri-lam is also a little more durable than the tls 350. =
Finally, the=20
new model that Andrew called the 5th D spec. has a zipper that =
is self=20
donning much like the tls 350, but instead of the zipper =
ending at the=20
hip, it ends midway between the hip and shoulder. This puts =
less wear=20
on the zipper when you bend over.=20
<DD>Tom=20
=
Sawicki<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><
;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><B=
R><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&
lt;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR=
><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>&l
t;BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=
<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><
;BR><BR>
<DD>"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you =
have to=20
get in the water"<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>
<DD>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast =
& more=20
<DD> Web Site <A href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/"=20
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A>=20
<DD>Email captjt@mi*.co*</FONT> =
</DD></BLOCKQUOTE></DD></DL><BR><BR><BR>"You can't
learn to dive =
on the=20
net, sooner or later you have to get in the
water"<BR><BR><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East =
Coast &=20
more <BR> Web Site <A href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A><BR>Email =
=20
=
captjt@mi*.co*<BR></FONT></U></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>"Yo
u =
can't=20
learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the=20
water"<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff><U>Your Guide to Great Wreck =
Diving along=20
the East Coast & more <BR> Web Site <A=20
href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A><BR>Email =
=20
captjt@mi*.co*<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></U></BODY></HTML
>
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1F5FD.EE584DA0--
--
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